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Author Topic: Drobo Help?  (Read 16625 times)

Carsten W

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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2009, 03:28:54 pm »

Quote from: feppe
That's defeating the whole point of RAID (Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks).

No it's not, check the prices. RE drives are not much more expensive. RAID was named after the avoidance of SCSI drives, not slightly more expensive SATA drives.
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feppe

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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2009, 04:41:08 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
No it's not, check the prices. RE drives are not much more expensive. RAID was named after the avoidance of SCSI drives, not slightly more expensive SATA drives.

Even then putting premium drives on a redundant array is defeating the purpose.

UlfKrentz

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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2009, 06:16:47 pm »

Quote from: feppe
Even then putting premium drives on a redundant array is defeating the purpose.

Carsten is right, RAID systems were used with SCSI Drives many years before there was SATA. Even if there would be only 1% more reliablility I would use premium drives, it´s not that much price difference. Think of what you store on your drives, are you really sure to have a copy of everything? Even if, how long will it last to restore from the second place?

Have you ever thought about what happens if one drive failes in an RAID5 setup? All remaining drives have to work extremly hard building up the new RAID consistency. I wouldn´t like to have a second failure than... We are still using one SCSI-RAID and several SATA(Seagate 24/7 ServerHD) Raids.

Cheers, Ulf

feppe

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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2009, 06:42:16 pm »

Quote from: UlfKrentz
Carsten is right, RAID systems were used with SCSI Drives many years before there was SATA. Even if there would be only 1% more reliablility I would use premium drives, it´s not that much price difference. Think of what you store on your drives, are you really sure to have a copy of everything? Even if, how long will it last to restore from the second place?

Have you ever thought about what happens if one drive failes in an RAID5 setup? All remaining drives have to work extremly hard building up the new RAID consistency. I wouldn´t like to have a second failure than... We are still using one SCSI-RAID and several SATA(Seagate 24/7 ServerHD) Raids.

Cheers, Ulf

If you've done the research on MTBF rates, the math on the ROI, or just value the peace of mind (no matter how ill-adviced it might be, not saying it is), go for it.

And once again: RAID is not backup.

EricWHiss

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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2009, 07:02:18 pm »

I'd be curious to know what the read write speeds over ethernet are with the new drobo pro and elite models.   Over the last 4 years I've tried both the Ready NAS NV (with their RAID X) and WesternDigital ShareSpace RAID setups and been disappointed with performance.  It's okay for an over night backup kind of thing and you need backups but not something you could use as a working volume.  I pretty much hate it though because you can't really work on your main volume when you're backing up all the time.  


I get real performance from my Highpoint Tech  RAID volume which connects to directly to a card in the computer.  I ended up buying two of these so I could use the 2nd as a backup.      Over about 4 years, I've had 3 drives go down in all of the above, and each time the highpoint has rebuilt the data.  So far so good!
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UlfKrentz

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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2009, 07:45:33 pm »

Quote from: feppe
If you've done the research on MTBF rates, the math on the ROI, or just value the peace of mind (no matter how ill-adviced it might be, not saying it is), go for it.

And once again: RAID is not backup.

If you rely on MTBF rates, no one of us should ever have experienced a HD problem, Seagate had an 5 years extended warranty for the server HDs so the math on the ROI was OK for us.
We´re just trying to take best care of our data, peace of mind is always good to have.
RAID is not backup, 100% agree, but we have our files stored to the RAID before we have a backup.

Cheers, Ulf

feppe

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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2009, 08:40:48 pm »

Quote from: UlfKrentz
If you rely on MTBF rates, no one of us should ever have experienced a HD problem

Then you don't know how to interpret MTBF figures.

On the same topic, there's a really good study by Google on the topic, with a gargantuan data set instead of the anecdotal evidence we see on forums. A common myth (mostly) dispelled is that heavy usage is correlated with drive failure rate.

Hywel

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« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2009, 03:51:47 am »

Quote from: ddk
If by hot storage you mean that you'll be working with the files stored on the drobo, you're in for an unpleasant surprise, drobos are just too slow for that and best used for static storage.

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.

The original Drobos may have been too slow, but the Drobo Pro with iSCSI is fast enough to edit ProRes422 HQ full HD video direct off the Drobopro, and easily fast enough for CPU/GPU limited tasks like raw processing.

  Cheers, Hywel

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narikin

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« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2009, 04:14:17 am »

Quote from: feppe
If one doesn't mind spending hours setting up, tweaking, finding room for and the right drive bays and/or cables, formatting, partitioning, setting different RAID modes, fighting with drivers, sending back a new replacement drive since it's different size than the rest, facing the same major headache when running out of space and having to upgrade all drives at the same time (and where to put the data in the meanwhile?), etc. ad nauseam, there are plenty of options. But if you want a plug-and-play solution which just works, and in which you just insert drives of any size and make, Drobo is the only product which delivers that. Some of the above problems are solved in some solutions, but Drobo has solved them all - at least on paper since I don't have one yet.
thanks for making me smile - seems like you have been eating Drobo advertising for breakfast!
All the above alternatives can be set up in about 2 button presses. and are usually faster (more powerful processors).
and no there is no need for 'special cables' or 'having to upgrade all the drives at the same time' or.. whatever.

Drobo has a clever marketing strategy, but their actual unique qualities are very minimal, or very overstated
more powerful machines with faster in/outs and extra important features are available for the same or less money, but if you want a shiny 'Drobo' label on your box, (or an Apple logo, or a Leica red Dot) then, by all means, pass on the alternatives.
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narikin

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« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2009, 04:23:49 am »

Quote from: Christopher
I think that is an very interesting point. I am really struggling between a QNap or the DroboPro. I think one huge point for the drobo, is that one does not have to get into NAS and their own file system stuff and can use it as "normal external drive" with the normal OS file system. That is for me a very tempting point.
if you want to ignore the NAS things and just plug a QNAP raid system in as a giant drive (or via USB, Firewire, eSATA or via Ethernet) and NOT have it as a NAS you can.
I never thought I would need/access my work as a NAS from elsewhere, but it has saved my life on two occasions already.

you can also use it as an FTP and save all those costs.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2009, 05:11:11 am »

Quote from: feppe
Even then putting premium drives on a redundant array is defeating the purpose.

Absolutely not. Have you ever had a drive fail? I have had two fail. According to the MTBF ratings neither should have failed, but both did. They say that drives either fail when new, or not for years. Well, the one drive I had was well run in, but failed soon after I put it on a RAID-0 array. Since then I have been paying a bit more to have drives slightly higher rated for RAID usage. Yes, I would never buy SCSI drives, they are just too expensive and small, but for me RAID is about the safety of my data, and the premium drives are about lowering the risk of having to rebuild the set in case a drive dies. It may make sense to Google to use the cheapest drives they can get, but I don't want to spend the time rebuilding drive sets whenever a drive dies. Apart from that, I use a Drobo, not a DroboPro, and if one drive dies, my data is at risk until the set is rebuilt. Another good reason not to buy junk drives.

You may not want to pay a little more for a slightly better drive, but your logic is not convincing to me.
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Hywel

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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2009, 07:16:45 am »

Quote from: carstenw
According to the MTBF ratings neither should have failed, but both did.

Whilst not having any argument with deciding to put slightly more expensive drives in your array, especially with only single drive redundancy, you don't seem to understand what a MTBF rating means.

It is a *mean* time between failures. It cannot tell you ANYTHING AT ALL about when any individual drive "should" fail! All it tells you is a statistical measure, given a LARGE number of drives, which will fail at all sorts of different times, what is the mean of those failure times.

A drive with a higher MTBF rating may be less likely to fail per unit time than a drive with a lower rating, but either drive can absolutely fail at any time, and because the MTBF doesn't tell you anything about the distribution of failures with time, you can't conclude anything at all about when one can expect a drive failure.

A 5 year MTBF failure rate absolutely does NOT mean that you expect the drive to go fine for five years. It means that if you run hundreds and hundreds of drives to failure, the mean time at which they failed was five years. But the first drive might have packed up inside five minutes... and it tells you very little about the pattern of failure, either. For example it is sometimes claimed that drives tend to fail right at the start, or run for years... this could still give you a five year MTBF if half the drives fail in the first few weeks, but the rest  all run for 10-15 years before failing. And one wonders how a manufacturer bringing out a new drive model can possibly have accurate ratings even for that, since by definition none of their drives will have been run for 15 years.

It may well make sense to buy drives with a higher MTBF rating to put in your arrays, but one should absolutely plan that a drive could fail at any time. Two drives are significantly less likely to fail at the same time if drive failure is stochastic, although if the failure is trigger by some correlated cause like a power spike on startup or dropping the enclosure, that can make multiple simultaneous failures a lot more likely.

The only robust solution is proper, full, regular backups, and offline backups of the backups offsite as well.

  Cheers, Hywel.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:18:58 am by Hywel »
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Christopher

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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2009, 07:31:46 am »

Quote from: narikin
if you want to ignore the NAS things and just plug a QNAP raid system in as a giant drive (or via USB, Firewire, eSATA or via Ethernet) and NOT have it as a NAS you can.
I never thought I would need/access my work as a NAS from elsewhere, but it has saved my life on two occasions already.

you can also use it as an FTP and save all those costs.


I thought that this is not possible, because a NAS uses a different file system and can't just be used as "external" drive ?
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Christopher Hauser
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feppe

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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2009, 07:56:54 am »

Quote from: narikin
thanks for making me smile - seems like you have been eating Drobo advertising for breakfast!
All the above alternatives can be set up in about 2 button presses. and are usually faster (more powerful processors).
and no there is no need for 'special cables' or 'having to upgrade all the drives at the same time' or.. whatever.

Drobo has a clever marketing strategy, but their actual unique qualities are very minimal, or very overstated
more powerful machines with faster in/outs and extra important features are available for the same or less money, but if you want a shiny 'Drobo' label on your box, (or an Apple logo, or a Leica red Dot) then, by all means, pass on the alternatives.

Reading comprehension: I was very clear in stating that some products have solved some of the challenges I listed, but only Drobo has solved them all.

I'm not sure which product you're referring to, but some ReadyNAS boxes come very close. Last time I checked (a year or so ago) they are still limited by the smallest-sized HDD in the box (ie. if you have 3x2TB plus 1x1TB, it acts like 4x1TB box). This is a main sticking point for me as it limits the flexibility of the box drastically. Also, data is not available when rebuilding.

None of the competition sounds like coming even close to a plug-and-play solution which is the second main sticking point.

Couldn't care less about a logo, but we obviously have very different feature requirements. I couldn't care less about speed, but I care a lot about UI, ease of use, and flexibility and scalability. When I was a teen I loved tinkering with computers, now I just want to get to work.

I'd be glad to find out there are non-Drobo boxes with a similar feature set, as the main reason why I haven't bought the Drobo yet is the (anecdotally) high failure rate I've heard, and the Drobo S and Drobo Pro are not cheap. I need to purchase some form of NAS or DAS early next year, so I'm keeping my ears open.

Jeffreytotaro

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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2009, 08:10:31 am »

I use both a 4-bay and an 8-bay.  One thing I want to add is that when moving large volumes of data its important to use a utility like Chronosync or SuperDuper to do the copy work.  These utilities will do a more thorough copy of the data and verify that it is accurate when copied.  Doing a 'finder' copy or drag-and-drop is not as reliable and you may find 'incomplete file' errors some time in the future when it may be too late to recover from your previous storage method.  I use finder copy when copying daily files that I will be using right away so I'll know if they are ok or not.  I use Chronosync to do daily back-up from the MacPro to the 4-bay Drobo, and then there is a weekly back-up of the 4-bay to the 8-bay.  I use a weekly schedule on this one so I have a window to recover any possible user errors that happen between the MacPro and the 4-bay.  Then once a quarter I swap the 8-bay drives with another set that is stored off-site and update them from the 4-bay.  
Both Drobos have worked well but recently both have had trouble when I wake the computer from sleep.  I sometimes get that 'eject error' as if I had not ejected the volume before unplugging it.  When waking from sleep the volumes may or may not be mounted on the desktop.  Drobo says this is caused by one drive that may spin up more slowly than the others.  Mine are all WD Caviar 2TB. Still seems scary to me and seems to only have happened since the most recent firmware update.
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JoeKitchen

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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2009, 08:30:24 am »

Quote from: Jeffreytotaro
I use both a 4-bay and an 8-bay.  One thing I want to add is that when moving large volumes of data its important to use a utility like Chronosync or SuperDuper to do the copy work.  These utilities will do a more thorough copy of the data and verify that it is accurate when copied.  Doing a 'finder' copy or drag-and-drop is not as reliable and you may find 'incomplete file' errors some time in the future when it may be too late to recover from your previous storage method.  I use finder copy when copying daily files that I will be using right away so I'll know if they are ok or not.  I use Chronosync to do daily back-up from the MacPro to the 4-bay Drobo, and then there is a weekly back-up of the 4-bay to the 8-bay.  I use a weekly schedule on this one so I have a window to recover any possible user errors that happen between the MacPro and the 4-bay.  Then once a quarter I swap the 8-bay drives with another set that is stored off-site and update them from the 4-bay.  
Both Drobos have worked well but recently both have had trouble when I wake the computer from sleep.  I sometimes get that 'eject error' as if I had not ejected the volume before unplugging it.  When waking from sleep the volumes may or may not be mounted on the desktop.  Drobo says this is caused by one drive that may spin up more slowly than the others.  Mine are all WD Caviar 2TB. Still seems scary to me and seems to only have happened since the most recent firmware update.
I am assuming that you can get Chronosync at the Apple store?
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Carsten W

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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2009, 08:32:22 am »

Quote from: Hywel
It is a *mean* time between failures. It cannot tell you ANYTHING AT ALL about when any individual drive "should" fail! All it tells you is a statistical measure, given a LARGE number of drives, which will fail at all sorts of different times, what is the mean of those failure times.

I do realize that  Still, 1,000,000 hours (MTBF for most drives AFAIK: http://techreport.com/articles.x/10516/1) is about, what, 114 years, you wouldn't think that even the outliers should fail in 1-2 years, given any kind of sane bellcurve. The MTBF rating are apparently totally useless to us as consumers in guessing how long drives should last, so what are we left with?

Maybe I just shouldn't have mentioned the MTBF (which was more for comic relief, to be honest), since my point was that drives die. My point in buying premium drives is to save time, not to avoid the inevitable.
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UlfKrentz

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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2009, 02:07:46 pm »

Quote from: feppe
Then you don't know how to interpret MTBF figures.

On the same topic, there's a really good study by Google on the topic, with a gargantuan data set instead of the anecdotal evidence we see on forums. A common myth (mostly) dispelled is that heavy usage is correlated with drive failure rate.

I didn´t use MTBF in a scientific correct way, my apologize, but may I quote from your link: "other notable patterns showed that failure rates are indeed definitely correlated to drive manufacturer, model, and age; " This states somehow want I tried to say.
Anyway it´s a bit off-topic.

Cheers, Ulf

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« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2009, 04:13:56 pm »

One more question:  When you setup the Drobo for a Max Volume of 16 TB, then it shows in the Finder as having that amount of space available, even though I only have 5.5TB installed.  Do you have to depend on the Drobo Dashboard to check your actual free space?

Are we supposed to just not think about that a let the Drobo worry about it?

Thanks,

CB
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Carsten W

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« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2009, 05:07:29 pm »

Quote from: CBarrett
Are we supposed to just not think about that a let the Drobo worry about it?

Yes, exactly. When you start to approach your physical limit, the Drobo will prompt you to insert another drive/swap out the smallest drive.
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