Help choosing MFDB

[Bill Lawrence]

Hi All,

I'd appreciate thoughts on which back to be looking for, probably between a Phase One P45 (not plus) or a Hasselblad CF/CFV-39.  I'm a landscape photographer, usually "the grand landscapes", who shoots 4x5 and a Canon 5D, and prints digitally.  I love using the view camera as it forces me to slow down and compose, but the film processing and scanning is definitely a bottleneck in the workflow.  I'm considering a MFDB to put on the back of a 2x3 or 4x5 view camera, and looking for a used back in the 39MP range.  I don't use film above 100 ISO in the view camera, so don't really need hi ISO capacity, but would like to be able to be able to do exposures at 100 ISO for up to about a minute for low light situations.  Big sensor area is a plus, but it looks like the only thing bigger than these two is the P65+, which is out of my price range.  Low noise at 100 ISO is important, as is good color and tonal representation.  I'll probably pick up a MF body to go with the back, but since I don't own any medium format gear at the moment (other than a lovely Zeiss-Ikon TLR) and I want to use it on the view camera, I'm worrying about the back first and the body later.  I'm not so much looking for "which is best", but I'd appreciate any comments on the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two backs that might help me to decide which to get.

Thanks!
Bill

[CBarrett]

Bill, I think the P45 is going to be your back for long exposures.  I haven't used the Leaf or Blad backs, but I believe a minute is pushing it on those, whereas the P45 can do several minutes easily.  I have used the P25+, P45, P45+ and P65+ on Arcas and was always happy.

What camera and lenses are most common to your shooting?

The one thing I'll say has been a disappointment, looking at a 6x9 or 645 groundglass is nothing like standing behind a 4x5 under the darkcloth.  You won't really retain the same experience.

-CB

[Doug Peterson]

Bill, I think the P45 is going to be your back for long exposures.  I haven't used the Leaf or Blad backs, but I believe a minute is pushing it on those, whereas the P45 can do several minutes easily.  I have used the P25+, P45, P45+ and P65+ on Arcas and was always happy.

If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.

No other digital backs will do that. Every back from Hassy, Leaf, and Sinar, and any other back from Phase either wont' work on a view camera (because they use strong microlenses) or can't handle that length of exposure.

The maximum exposure time for all digital backs is measured at base ISO. At higher ISO the maximum exposure actually decreases. Most backs are rated at 30 seconds or 60 seconds, but only at base ISO (usually 25 or 50). The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are the only backs (which can be used on a view camera) that can go beyond that (the 45 non plus can go for "several minutes", the + backs can go for around an hour at normal temperatures or several hours at colder temperatures.

So if you are sure you need that length of exposure then you can, for all intents and purposes, stop looking at anything other than those five Phase One backs. Therefore it would be prudent to carefully consider whether you could settle for a back which can handle e.g. 30 seconds at ISO50; that you could do with most backs and would allow you to pick from a broader range of backs.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off

[Jeff-Grant]

That's funny, I can do 64 second exposures on my H3D II 39. Does something strange happen if I put it on a view camera? Here's an image at 45 seconds: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774

[Dick Roadnight]

If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.

If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?

I had thought that this would also work for when one has insufficient flash power, e.g. the inside of a cathedral with a handful of battery flashes.

[Jeff-Grant]

If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?

This theory doesn't hold for landscape. Too many things move.

[Dick Roadnight]

If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?

This theory doesn't hold for landscape. Too many things move.

¿I think that they would probably also move during a one minute plus exposure?

One of the benefits of view camera photography is that you can use the movements to allow you get the DOF you want at larger apertures, so you do not need such long exposures... so you can use one exposure for surf (or trees-in the wind or anything else moving) and others for the rest of the picture.

[Dustbak]

Problem with the H3/H4 backs is that you will need an external powersource to feed your back. Personally I find this annoying and making me feel going back the time of my Valeo & Ixpress backs. The alternative is the Hasselblad CF back (which I use). Hasselblad backs do now 64sec's and there is the promise of much longer...

Other options are the P1 backs, especially when you need longer than 64sec's there is indeed no alternative besides the P21/25/30/45 (or the + version of these).

I am pretty sure I would be able to use any one of these backs and be happy with it.

[Henry Goh]

If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?

I had thought that this would also work for when one has insufficient flash power, e.g. the inside of a cathedral with a handful of battery flashes.

Interesting.  Have you actually done this yourself?

[edwinb]

I would have thought a complete f3/emotion landscape system would be a good value bet you could possibly get one of the small screen emotion 75 for the extra pixels without the pounds - and going up in quality would take into consideration a sinar artec (also as  a package with mfdb)where you can step and repeat in a completely accurate way for panoramic shots. also these backs can fit (with adaptor) just about any other mf camera body.
edwin

[Bill Lawrence]

Thanks for all the replies!  It sounds like the P45 may be the way to go, although if necessary I can deal with more limitations on the long exposures.   The Phase One specs say "couple of minutes" or some such on the P45, but wasn't sure if this was realistic to expect on either of the backs.  Much of my work would be max a few seconds, and for my night time work if worse comes to worse I can switch to the 5D and cope (or back to Provia and cope), but I couldn't tell what the limitations were for the back.

Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45.  I'm assuming  shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first.  Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.

Doug - That is quite helpful.  I was having difficulty trying to separate the two on the promotional materials.

Dick and Jeff - I've never considered stacking exposures (never occurred to me, even though I have friends who are into astrophotography)  - time for an experiment on the DSLR.


Edwin - I wouldn't be averse to a Sinar, but I haven't seen them showing up used that often, so I haven't looked into them that much.

Thanks, everyone!

Bill

[Doug Peterson]

That's funny, I can do 64 second exposures on my H3D II 39. Does something strange happen if I put it on a view camera? Here's an image at 45 seconds: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774

That's a beautiful image. However, what ISO were you shooting at? Most likely 50. As I said there are several systems which can do a good job up to a minute (or 64 seconds) at base ISO. Your H3D-II-39 is included there (as is the P65+). However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.

I think I was fair in my advice that the user should consider whether he really needs exposures longer than than. As I mentioned on another thread there are ways you can try to cheat another stop or two. If he can give up long exposures as a requirement then he can look at many other great systems from Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, and Sinar - all of whom provide some very good solutions. However, if the OP really does consider exposures longer than 1 min / ISO 50 to be important then there is very little doubt the Phase backs I outlined are his only option and anything else would be interfering with his creative process.

Note that I very specifically excluded the P20 non plus, P21 non plus, and P25 non plus as these backs don't hold up well in long exposures. The P45 non plus is the only non plus back which could do "several minutes".

The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are his options for good long exposures.


Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off

[CBarrett]

Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45.  I'm assuming  shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first.  Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.

I was wondering how wide you shoot.  I believe the P45 equivalent of your 72mm would be somewhere around a 28mm (not sure what the exact crop factors are).  You're going to have a hard time finding a view camera that focuses that wide.  This was the first roadblock I ran into.  Luckily I was shooting with an Arca F Line and I was able to reverse the standards and shoot really wide with recessed boards.  Next, tolerances became a problem.  Being a little bit out of square on a digital back can make focusing a nightmare.  I highly recommend renting a back to try out on your Canham to see how workable it all is.  Some of the dealers like Capture Integration can FedEx out a rental.  Of course you'll need an adapter to get it on your camera...with rental fees it can be an expensive test, but cheaper than buying a back you can't really use, or don't enjoy using.

Best of luck!

-CB

[David Grover / Capture One]

That's a beautiful image. However, what ISO were you shooting at? Most likely 50. As I said there are several systems which can do a good job up to a minute (or 64 seconds) at base ISO. Your H3D-II-39 is included there (as is the P65+). However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.

I think I was fair in my advice that the user should consider whether he really needs exposures longer than than. As I mentioned on another thread there are ways you can try to cheat another stop or two. If he can give up long exposures as a requirement then he can look at many other great systems from Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, and Sinar - all of whom provide some very good solutions. However, if the OP really does consider exposures longer than 1 min / ISO 50 to be important then there is very little doubt the Phase backs I outlined are his only option and anything else would be interfering with his creative process.

Note that I very specifically excluded the P20 non plus, P21 non plus, and P25 non plus as these backs don't hold up well in long exposures. The P45 non plus is the only non plus back which could do "several minutes".

The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are his options for good long exposures.


Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off

Sorry Doug but that is total utter BS and will gladly post you a 64s shot at 100 ISO tomorrow night.

[Steve Hendrix]

Sorry Doug but that is total utter BS and will gladly post you a 64s shot at 100 ISO tomorrow night.

David

You are 100% correct. I have to apologize to everyone here for Doug's post. First - as you stated, it is not correct. I have had plenty of experience with Hasselblad products, and what Doug stated about long exposure at ISO 100 degrading quickly is not true. Long exposure at ISO 100 looks very good.

Further, regardless of whether what Doug said was factual or not, Hasselblad is a product we do not currently sell. Therefore, he should not have commented on Hasselbad at all in the first place.

As a company, Capture Integration tries very hard to be as objective as possible in an extremely competitive industry and to uphold professional standards with respect to our competitors as much as possible. Doug's post was not in keeping with the spirit of that objective and for that we apologize.

Doug is a tremendous asset to Capture Integration and to our customers (and to many anonymous posters on this forum). However, his most outstanding value is the depth of his knowledge on Phase One products more than anything else and he will make more of an effort to adhere to his specialty in the future.

Thank you and sorry for the inappropriate post from Doug.


Steve Hendrix

[Dick Roadnight]

If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?

Interesting.  Have you actually done this yourself?

No... but add is one of the merge options, so I think it should work.

[Bill Lawrence]

I was wondering how wide you shoot.  I believe the P45 equivalent of your 72mm would be somewhere around a 28mm (not sure what the exact crop factors are).  You're going to have a hard time finding a view camera that focuses that wide.  This was the first roadblock I ran into.  Luckily I was shooting with an Arca F Line and I was able to reverse the standards and shoot really wide with recessed boards.  Next, tolerances became a problem.  Being a little bit out of square on a digital back can make focusing a nightmare.  I highly recommend renting a back to try out on your Canham to see how workable it all is.  Some of the dealers like Capture Integration can FedEx out a rental.  Of course you'll need an adapter to get it on your camera...with rental fees it can be an expensive test, but cheaper than buying a back you can't really use, or don't enjoy using.

Best of luck!

-CB

Thanks, Chris!  Your point is well taken, and I figured rental was probably the next step - I'd rather lay out the rental fees before buying the back.  This thread at least gives me some ideas on where to start.  The Canham will go down to 53mm extension, without recessed boards or such, so if the DB works out, I'll need to figure out something to go wider (and still fit in my backpack).

Cheers!
Bill

[archivue]

What's the difference between the P45 and the P45+ ?

[Mr. Rib]

archivue, this may anwser your question
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...s/p45plus.shtml

[Nick_T]

First off thanks to Steve Hendrix for his post, Steve has always been a gentleman!

As Dustbak pointed out some of the hasselblad backs are less suited to working on a view camera because they need external power (either a laptop, hasselblad's image bank which is an expensive battery powered external hard drive, or something like the big wave power solution).

However the OP did state he was looking at the CFV CF backs so the battery issue is moot as they are both self powered backs.

As for long exposures I did talk to a chap once who had been testing firmware on his CF39 that let him shoot up to 30 minutes but not sure when we'll see that.... Certainly don't buy any piece of kit based on what might be coming but rather on what works for you now.

oh and I believe the "micro lensed backs don't work on view cameras" argument to be rather over stated as I regularly use my H3D31 (microlensed) with the HTS and have yet to see a colour cast (but I'll use the scene calibration in phocus if I do).
Hope that sheds some light.
Nick-T