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Author Topic: Rollei born again  (Read 18828 times)

ThierryH

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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 05:24:47 pm »

Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Hi Thierry,

one must distinguish reality from hype regarding AF vs AFD. Please understand I cannot say more.
No need to say anything more, with the word "hype" you have given all information.
 
However, let me disagree here.
Though, it doesn't take away the fact that the lens system isn't complete for the Hy6, by far. That's my main point. And a system without a complete lens range cannot exist.

Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Regarding their optical identity, they are one and the same.
The Schneider Flektogon 35/2.8 was only planned as AFD and not as AF. The first optical calculation did not yield the desired results, which is why it had to be recalculated causing delays. But the new calculation achieved the benchmarks and was ready at the end of 2008. Manufacturing could start anytime with the proper investment in place. Let us hope this will effectively be the case.

Pascal
Yes, I know the "Flektogon story" very well, with the re-design, also how it eventually finished, at least with the company I used to work for: it did by far not reach the quality benchmarks expected (and in the specifications), in many aspects. Did you test the few samples available from the ones ready end of 2008? I did, together with some of my former colleagues. It was not a question of investment, since ordered a couple of years back and eagerly and impatiently awaited. I won't say more about this sad story and the needed lenses missing so badly for the Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2009, 06:27:51 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Rib
Can anyone tell me what adapters are available for 6008AF? In other words- what can be mounted on 6008AF with use of adapters? I recall an I-adapter, but nothing else.

Sinar eMotion series backs
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Gigi

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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2009, 10:44:51 pm »

With all this talk about incomplete lens lineup, how come the S2 gets a pass?What if someone would want something in between 35 and 70 mm, and not a zoom?

And sure, smart money, the house, and everyone else lining up will tell you the Hy6 is and always will be dead. They're probably right, especially in the current crunch. But sometimes, there is a small little bit of light for niche players and it might someday shine again, so I for one don't want to slam the door shut. But if I were a professional in this industry, yes, I'd go with the big guys, or even the medium ones.

Still, it seems that there is an awful lot of 20-20 hindsight. Firms like Rollei have a very hard time in changing marketplaces, especially this one. What makes it hard for some of us is that if you understand and appreciate the virtues of their product, their cameras stand out well without clear competition or replacement.  Time moves on and we'll probably have to adjust.  It just rankles to see how "right" people are about the demise of the system. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that an open system without Phase wasn't going anywhere, or that one camera under 3 name brands didn't make a lot of sense. But makers are different from critics, and for a brief moment, lets thank them for trying.

And as the prices adjust, I hope one lands somewhere close.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:46:07 pm by Geoffreyg »
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Geoff

EricWHiss

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« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2009, 11:45:30 pm »

Thiery,

You're right - not counting the 30mm distagon (fisheye), 40mm f/3.5 Super angulon, 40mm zeiss distagon, 50mm f/2.8 AFD, 50mm f/2.8 PQS, 50mm f/4 distagon, 55mm PCS (tilt/shift), 60mm distagon, 60mm curtaon, 80mm AFD, 80mm AF 2.8, 80mm f/2 xenotar, 80mm f/2.8 planar, 90mm apo macro,  110mm f/2.0, 120mm f/4 macro, 150mm apo macro, 150mm sonnar, 150mm tele xenar, 180mm f/2.8, 180mm AFD,  250mm , 300mm f/4 apo, 350mm, and 500mm - the rollei hy6 lens line up is incomplete!    

Edit: Whoops forgot the AF 60-140, 75-150mm zoom, 140-280 zooms,  the 1000mm tele-tessar and probably a few more.

While not just for the Rollei, you can mount things like imagon lenses (i used a 120mm imagon just yesterday to do portraits of a local singer who wanted a special look), and specialized macro lenses such as the M-componon's because Rollei has a shutter adapter.   That's just one item of a long list of cool accessories that make the system so fantastic.


Shooters will be lucky to ever have a lens system as complete as that, as fast as that, and as high quality as those available for Rollei 6000 and Hy6 platforms.    

Eric
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 11:53:28 pm by EricWHiss »
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ThierryH

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« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2009, 05:55:10 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Thiery,

You're right - not counting the 30mm distagon (fisheye), 40mm f/3.5 Super angulon, 40mm zeiss distagon, 50mm f/2.8 AFD, 50mm f/2.8 PQS, 50mm f/4 distagon, 55mm PCS (tilt/shift), 60mm distagon, 60mm curtaon, 80mm AFD, 80mm AF 2.8, 80mm f/2 xenotar, 80mm f/2.8 planar, 90mm apo macro,  110mm f/2.0, 120mm f/4 macro, 150mm apo macro, 150mm sonnar, 150mm tele xenar, 180mm f/2.8, 180mm AFD,  250mm , 300mm f/4 apo, 350mm, and 500mm - the rollei hy6 lens line up is incomplete!    

Edit: Whoops forgot the AF 60-140, 75-150mm zoom, 140-280 zooms,  the 1000mm tele-tessar and probably a few more.

While not just for the Rollei, you can mount things like imagon lenses (i used a 120mm imagon just yesterday to do portraits of a local singer who wanted a special look), and specialized macro lenses such as the M-componon's because Rollei has a shutter adapter.   That's just one item of a long list of cool accessories that make the system so fantastic.


Shooters will be lucky to ever have a lens system as complete as that, as fast as that, and as high quality as those available for Rollei 6000 and Hy6 platforms.    

Eric

Dear Eric,

I published an almost complete list here some months ago, over 40 totally, for those interested. Unfortunately many are discontinued, as said earlier, and can be found only second-hand. However, be careful, some older versions don't work very well on the Hy6, this has been reported many times here. If somebody is interested, I still have myself a Schneider 2,8/50 AF Super Angulon PQS HFT (new).

Best regards,
Thierry


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ThierryH

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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2009, 06:00:23 am »

Quote from: EPd
Thierry, not that it matters much by now anymore, but are you sure you tested the version that was redesigned by that US daughter company of Jenoptik? I happen to have the final design drawings and they are definitely different from the original design. And to Pascal: the 35mm Flektogon has never been a Schneider design; it was designed by an F&H engineer who retired before the flawed design was prototyped. When this design turned out to have some serious problems with the elements Jenoptik suggested to outsource the redesign to their US daughter (which I will not name).

Dear EPd,

It does effectively not matter anymore. The Jenoptik US daughter company did never built a prototype of a newly designed 35mm, so no I could not test it, since at that stage (end of 2008) there were already different considerations. But you are effectively and absolutely right.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Gigi

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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2009, 08:56:45 am »

As a new system camera, with nice new AFD lenses, the Hy6 wasn't fully complete. That is true. With better sales, or a longer run, it probably would have been.

However, as a legacy camera, the Hy6 came with an amazing lineup of good older lenses, listed by Eric above. They're mostly manual, but very good lenses.

For the snappy "have to have a full new system now" photog, it might seem dated. To a more mature user, its a pretty comprehensive group.

Sales folks had to tend to the former, and us afficionados to the latter. Sometimes, we even meet, but rarely.
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Geoff

BJL

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« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2009, 05:55:23 pm »

Quote from: Geoffreyg
As a new system camera, with nice new AFD lenses, the Hy6 wasn't fully complete ... as a legacy camera, the Hy6 came with an amazing lineup of good older lenses ... mostly manual ... To a more mature user, its a pretty comprehensive group.
That is about how I see the whole "Rollei 6x6" family of products, including the Hy6: to borrow your word, a "mature" system, suited to "mature" users: ones who already have lot of lenses and/or who are comfortable working with manual focus and who are willing use some "mature" (out of production) lenses.

Which is why I predict that the revival will mostly focus on "mature" products, from TLRs to 6008 (MF? AF?) and mostly or entirely manual focus lenses. After all, the Hasselblad V series 6x6 and Mamiya RZ 6x7 systems are still going, in a small, quiet way.
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Gigi

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« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2009, 11:33:51 pm »

Quote from: BJL
That is about how I see the whole "Rollei 6x6" family of products, including the Hy6: to borrow your word, a "mature" system, suited to "mature" users: ones who already have lot of lenses and/or who are comfortable working with manual focus and who are willing use some "mature" (out of production) lenses.

Which is why I predict that the revival will mostly focus on "mature" products, from TLRs to 6008 (MF? AF?) and mostly or entirely manual focus lenses. After all, the Hasselblad V series 6x6 and Mamiya RZ 6x7 systems are still going, in a small, quiet way.

The Rollei system is quite interesting: its a very tactile system. If you use it, and fiddle with it, it all makes sense, in a way that the Hassy's don't (as much), and other cameras seem to fall a bit short. The ergonomics work (for me) and the combination of practical layouts and sophisticated choices seem really optimal.

In terms of marketing  - this approach has never been easily communicated. Its the same in some other products - automotive, or architectural. Some things you just have to see and use to appreciate; other do better in the marketing based world of today. Of course, cameras in general are a "touch and feel" kind of product - sometimes you are sure it is the right one for you, and when you use it, you find out it isn't. All cameras seem to have that "must use first" aspect - surprising, given how refined this market sector is. Just goes to show we still have a lot to learn about how people work with tools, and what preferences they have.
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Geoff

EricWHiss

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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2009, 12:08:33 am »

I agree with the previous posts - and nothing wrong with the quality of the existing MF or AF lenses for the Rollei 6000 and Hy6.   I just don't understand the comments that the system is incomplete.  The only reports I have read about incompatible older lenses with the hy6 and AFi were fixed with firmware updates.  Another thing I don't understand is why so much emphasis is placed on the need for AF lenses in medium format.  Who uses a centrally located single point AF anyway?  I mean if you're shooting at f/13 or f/16 then focus and recompose is going to work, but then so is just guessing at the distance and dialing it in.  The whole beauty of MF systems is a big bright viewfinder or WLF in the first place.  

Also I have to say that I'm really surprised to see people kicking dirt on the camera now that its down - and especially the ones that were touting it highly when they had jobs with various companies  to sell that product.  So you guys - were you blowing smoke at us then or now?   Surely you're getting ready to sell the next new thing and wouldn't want anyone to cling onto the past even if it was really good right?

Maybe the people saying the lens system was incomplete are mostly the ones that are in the selling side of the business.   Perhaps it's an economic necessity for vendors to sell a whole new system, camera and lenses and not just lenses.  Leica dumped their R10 in favor of a whole new system that requires users to buy a whole new set.  Phamiya is doing this too - with the newer leaf shutter lenses - maybe it was part of the plan?  Hasselblad too changed lens systems.   Anyhow, there's plenty of Rollei 6000 series in circulation though - just look at ebay or some of the used camera shops.  Never was a concern of mine and certainly I didn't hold the view the system was incomplete.    

Certainly I wish that the new business entity will prosper and survive.  IMHO the Rollei MF cameras are the best out there.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:50:30 am by EricWHiss »
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Carl Glover

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« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2009, 03:43:52 am »

Certainly I wish that the new business entity will prosper and survive.  IMHO the Rollei MF cameras are the best out there.
[/quote]

I agree. I've had a Hy6 for almost two years and prior to that three Rollei 6008s which I still dig out every now and then. I've dabbled with Hasselblad H series cameras but find them annoying - I suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome and my wrist locks up within half an hour of enduring what must be one of the most poorly designed grips I've ever encountered, so it ends being a tripod-only camera for health reasons.

paratom

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« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2009, 06:57:59 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
Pascal,

The question or point was, will the Hy6 ever come to life again. I seriously doubt it, like MR, for many reasons: economical, technological, organisational as well as market potential. And yes, I find it to be a pity as well as a waste of money, even much a waste of human passion and sweat. But nobody cares about this in an economical driven business.
I didn't say there will never be a 6x6 sensor, or even bigger, but certainly not in the near future, and even less on a platform like the Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry

I am afraid you are right and you know much more about the market than I do.
I still would believe that it was much easier to develop a 6x6 system based on an existing system compared to something completely new (like Leica S2)
In one way the lens line up is not complete (50,80,150 and 180 do exist as AFD as far as I understand) on the other side it might be the MF system with some of the nicest lenses available. Anyways - for me personally it doesnt even matter much since I am happy with what I have/which is available today.
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