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Author Topic: Rollei born again  (Read 18829 times)

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2009, 05:55:26 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Putting aside the Hy6 for the moment.....IMHO the 6008AF is still a better camera than most current MF solutions out there.

I agree, but the sync cable is the achilles heel when shooting digital. If I had the cash, I would get the Hy6 just to lose this cable. Would be nice if a digital-friendly version of the 6008 were released (then Sinar/Hasselblad could release a new rotating adapter with support for the electronic interface). I won't hold my breath though.
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 06:29:46 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
I agree, but the sync cable is the achilles heel when shooting digital. If I had the cash, I would get the Hy6 just to lose this cable. Would be nice if a digital-friendly version of the 6008 were released (then Sinar/Hasselblad could release a new rotating adapter with support for the electronic interface). I won't hold my breath though.

That's not a problem with the Phase backs as none is required at least with the 6008AF, and the Ixpress backs also operate cable free with that model.    I agree though, a digital friendly version of the 6008AF would be great.  I'd love to have the EXIF data from the shoots.
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Gigi

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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 09:34:15 pm »

Quote from: michael
Though it had potential, given the current convoluted corporate ownership politics, technical issues, legal machinations, bankruptcy filings, and not to mention the continuing poor global economy, I would say that the chances of the Hy6 ever being resurrected are somewhere between zero and none.

R.I.P

Michael

That's a disappointing observation. I thought you were a sporting man.

(it may be right, but hey, what's wrong with a little hope for the down and out?)

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Geoff

rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2009, 02:03:17 am »

Quote from: foto-z
I agree, but the sync cable is the achilles heel when shooting digital. If I had the cash, I would get the Hy6 just to lose this cable. Would be nice if a digital-friendly version of the 6008 were released (then Sinar/Hasselblad could release a new rotating adapter with support for the electronic interface). I won't hold my breath though.

Hello Graham, PhaseOne backs for the 6008 AF can be ordered through the dealer. Regrettably, those backs have not been available for the Hy6 since PhaseOne was not part of the original development (F&H, Sinar and Leaf).
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rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 02:07:35 am »

Yes, notwithstanding the insolvency of F&H activities at the Braunschweig factory have been ongoing, which I have experienced myself. Both sales and servicing/repair have remained very professional. It was suggested to me several times that there was a high chance that activities would continue beyond the end of the insolvency, which is the case as we can see with the appearance of DHW Fototechnik now. It took courageous people to do so in difficult times. I wish them all the success they deserve and will continue to support them.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2009, 03:22:32 am »

Quote from: rolleiflexpages
Hello Graham, PhaseOne backs for the 6008 AF can be ordered through the dealer. Regrettably, those backs have not been available for the Hy6 since PhaseOne was not part of the original development (F&H, Sinar and Leaf).

As far as I know, the Phase mount only allows for landscape orientation on the Rollei (this has been reported earlier in this forum). Also, as much as I respect the Phase backs, I would prefer to avoid a fixed mount over an adapter system.
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paratom

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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2009, 07:44:11 am »

Quote from: ThierryH
Christopher,

that's the way it is until something is ironed out in all details and ready to go public. In this case this means that NOTHING is ironed out YET, or may be even that nothing is going on at all, thus very little people knowing which way it could go, if it goes somewhere. Nothing wrong for me here.
What I feel to be wrong is that there is a wonderful camera simply shamefully resting on some shelves and nobody to realize the potential it still has.

Well, PO has its MF platform, meaning Leaf has it as well now, Hasselblad has its own, and Sinar doesn't seem to be either interested or able to bring it back to the market.
Who else could be interested in a stand-alone camera which doesn't bear in itself any profit margin, which isn't by far complete with all lenses and accessories, and which probably therefore means a lot of financial investment with little chance of fast ROI?

Best regards,
Thierry

Sensors get less expensive every year. I guess in 1 or 2 years it shouldnt be too complicated to make a 6x6 sensor.

So I guess each company could be interested in the Hy6-know how which wanted to use a sensor bigger than that of the whole competition without needing to develop a new system (camera and lenses) from scratch.

I allways thought bigger is better, and MF-people use MF because of sensor size. So why should this only be true until you reach the current sensor sizes?

Lets say Phase would be able to develop larger sensors - and wanted a system for people who want leaf-shutter, or who want exchangable viewfinder, or who want rotating backs/sensors) - why not also offer Hy-6 bodies and Rollei lenses in addition to their phase 645 system?
Hasselblad also offers the V-system and the H-system.
Just some thoughts.
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ThierryH

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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2009, 11:53:15 am »

Quote from: paratom
Sensors get less expensive every year. I guess in 1 or 2 years it shouldnt be too complicated to make a 6x6 sensor.

So I guess each company could be interested in the Hy6-know how which wanted to use a sensor bigger than that of the whole competition without needing to develop a new system (camera and lenses) from scratch.

I allways thought bigger is better, and MF-people use MF because of sensor size. So why should this only be true until you reach the current sensor sizes?

Lets say Phase would be able to develop larger sensors - and wanted a system for people who want leaf-shutter, or who want exchangable viewfinder, or who want rotating backs/sensors) - why not also offer Hy-6 bodies and Rollei lenses in addition to their phase 645 system?
Hasselblad also offers the V-system and the H-system.
Just some thoughts.

It isn't complicated at all, to manufacture a 6x6 sensor, the technology exists and it can be done on demand. The question being the price and if it makes sense economically speaking.
So far nobody (understand back manufacturer) has ordered such a sensor. There must be some reasons.
Then, the Hy6 is there, true, but how much does it cost to re-vive it, understand to get the production line with the special machinery and tools ready.
In addition, the lens system for this camera is another story: the Hy6 system doesn't have a complete lens program, and developing what still is only on drawing boards costs a hell of money.

Best regards,
Thierry
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2009, 12:00:59 pm »

Quote from: ThierryH
... the Hy6 system doesn't have a complete lens program, and developing what still is only on drawing boards costs a hell of money.


????
That's weird - what about all the existing 6000 series lenses?   Tons of them out there and most are very high quality.  The only lens I thought was still in development was the 35mm flektagon?
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BJL

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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2009, 12:06:40 pm »

Thierry, I agree with all your comments about the severe economic challenges to introduction of a full 6x6 DMF camera (with 56x56mm sensor).  But it will be hard to persuade people who are inclined to deny or ignore uncomfortable facts about large sensor costs, and to declare with no evidence that sensors (of a given large size) are getting substantially cheaper with time. The "faux Moore's Law" lives on.
And on this comment
Quote from: ThierryH
... the Hy6 system doesn't have a complete lens program ...
I presume that you are talking about the very limited selection of auto-focus lenses ever prdocuced for the Rollei/Hy6 cameras?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:07:51 pm by BJL »
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rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2009, 12:16:28 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
????
That's weird - what about all the existing 6000 series lenses?   Tons of them out there and most are very high quality.  The only lens I thought was still in development was the 35mm flektagon?

Indeed, there are lots of choices of Schneider and Zeiss lenses for Rolleiflex 6000 and Hy6 series out there. The only one in development was/is the Flektogon 35/2.8 AFD as the camera system could need a wider lens than the current Super Angulon 50/2.8 AF/AFD and the Super Angulon 40/3.5 manual lens. Especially in combination with a wide-angle Leaf AFi-II 10 digital back the potential could be enormous.
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ThierryH

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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2009, 12:24:51 pm »

Quote from: BJL
Thierry, I agree with all your comments about the severe economic challenges to introduction of a full 6x6 DMF camera (with 56x56mm sensor).  But it will be hard to persuade people who are inclined to deny or ignore uncomfortable facts about large sensor costs, and to declare with no evidence that sensors (of a given large size) are getting substantially cheaper with time. The "faux Moore's Law" lives on.
Dear BJL,

I agree with you as well, but: a 6x6 sensor will most probably cost a "few" k's more than the current ones, and for the first (understand back manufacturer) to order it. Most probably it would be bound with an exclusivity agreement, which costs even (much) more. With time (and exclusivity) passing, the sensor costs would decline, obviously. The question is: who would be interested to go this way (6x6) and invest the first. I don't see any of the current players either having interests or financially able to do it, even more so when one knows what it would cost to re-vive the Hy6.

Quote from: BJL
And on this comment

I presume that you are talking about the very limited selection of auto-focus lenses ever prdocuced for the Rollei/Hy6 cameras?
Yes, I do speak about the D-line of Schneider lenses which were planed and never manufactured, some never finished being designed. I am of course well aware that there are over 40 "old" Schneider, Zeiss lenses, from the Rolleiflex 600x series which do fit the Hy6 (some fit mechanically, but have proven to be problematic when from an older version), but unfortunately for the vast majority now not longer available (only on the second-hand market for some, and then in very little quantities). That's the reality.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:26:02 pm by ThierryH »
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rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2009, 02:14:55 pm »

Quote from: ThierryH
Dear BJL,

I agree with you as well, but: a 6x6 sensor will most probably cost a "few" k's more than the current ones, and for the first (understand back manufacturer) to order it. Most probably it would be bound with an exclusivity agreement, which costs even (much) more. With time (and exclusivity) passing, the sensor costs would decline, obviously. The question is: who would be interested to go this way (6x6) and invest the first. I don't see any of the current players either having interests or financially able to do it, even more so when one knows what it would cost to re-vive the Hy6.

The pressure will be on when the 24x36 DSLR cameras will deliver ever better quality. The only way to break out would then be an bigger format such as 6x6.
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rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2009, 02:16:35 pm »

Quote from: ThierryH
Yes, I do speak about the D-line of Schneider lenses which were planed and never manufactured, some never finished being designed. I am of course well aware that there are over 40 "old" Schneider, Zeiss lenses, from the Rolleiflex 600x series which do fit the Hy6 (some fit mechanically, but have proven to be problematic when from an older version), but unfortunately for the vast majority now not longer available (only on the second-hand market for some, and then in very little quantities). That's the reality.

The Schneider AFD and AF lenses are identical apart from the fact that the former lack an aperture ring on the barrel. The line-up was/is not huge but quite complete apart from the very-wide angle 35mm.
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ThierryH

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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2009, 02:28:09 pm »

Quote from: rolleiflexpages
The Schneider AFD and AF lenses are identical apart from the fact that the former lack an aperture ring on the barrel.
Not exactly true, Pascal. There is a difference, other than the aperture ring: there are much tighter quality tolerances, thus no or little sample variations. Then, they are not all identical optically, from those which were planed as AFD, the 35mm being one of them. It was designed a first time and almost finished for going in production, then finally not meeting the quality expected and currently still to be re-designed.

Best regards,
Thierry
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ThierryH

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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2009, 02:42:35 pm »

Quote from: rolleiflexpages
The pressure will be on when the 24x36 DSLR cameras will deliver ever better quality. The only way to break out would then be an bigger format such as 6x6.

Pascal,

The question or point was, will the Hy6 ever come to life again. I seriously doubt it, like MR, for many reasons: economical, technological, organisational as well as market potential. And yes, I find it to be a pity as well as a waste of money, even much a waste of human passion and sweat. But nobody cares about this in an economical driven business.
I didn't say there will never be a 6x6 sensor, or even bigger, but certainly not in the near future, and even less on a platform like the Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry
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uaiomex

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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2009, 03:53:47 pm »

That's dreadful!
I hope you're mistaken
Eduardo

Quote from: ThierryH
I didn't say there will never be a 6x6 sensor, or even bigger, but certainly not in the near future, and even less on a platform like the Hy6.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Mr. Rib

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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2009, 04:05:59 pm »

Can anyone tell me what adapters are available for 6008AF? In other words- what can be mounted on 6008AF with use of adapters? I recall an I-adapter, but nothing else.

-edit-

Hmm and about Hy6- look at the bright side, it seems that it wont be resurrected thus we (at least the ones who don't mind a small gamble) will be able to grab a bargain for existing Hy6 body soon enough


« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 04:13:22 pm by Mr. Rib »
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ixpressraf

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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2009, 04:50:26 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Rib
Can anyone tell me what adapters are available for 6008AF? In other words- what can be mounted on 6008AF with use of adapters? I recall an I-adapter, but nothing else.

-edit-

Hmm and about Hy6- look at the bright side, it seems that it wont be resurrected thus we (at least the ones who don't mind a small gamble) will be able to grab a bargain for existing Hy6 body soon enough

I have an I-adapter for rolleiu so that works. Sinar probably also has an adapter. Phase had a P20 for rollei....
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rolleiflexpages

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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2009, 04:53:29 pm »

Quote from: ThierryH
Not exactly true, Pascal. There is a difference, other than the aperture ring: there are much tighter quality tolerances, thus no or little sample variations. Then, they are not all identical optically, from those which were planed as AFD, the 35mm being one of them. It was designed a first time and almost finished for going in production, then finally not meeting the quality expected and currently still to be re-designed.


Hi Thierry,

one must distinguish reality from hype regarding AF vs AFD. Please understand I cannot say more.

Regarding their optical identity, they are one and the same.
The Schneider Flektogon 35/2.8 was only planned as AFD and not as AF. The first optical calculation did not yield the desired results, which is why it had to be recalculated causing delays. But the new calculation achieved the benchmarks and was ready at the end of 2008. Manufacturing could start anytime with the proper investment in place. Let us hope this will effectively be the case.

Pascal
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 04:54:05 pm by rolleiflexpages »
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