Profoto Pro8A compared to Broncolor ScoroA4S

[teddillard]

another small error in the data comparison.

the broncolor scoro a4s has a range from 32oo ws down to 3 ws.
the profoto a8 has a range from 24oo ws down to 5 ws.

so,
the scoro covers a range of 10 aperture intervals = 11 f-numbers.
the a8 covers a range of 9 aperture intervals =  10 f-numbers.

example:
if you use f 1:1 for the lowest output on each generator (3 respective 5 ws),
the f stop of the profoto a8 at 24oo ws is f 1:22.
the f stop of the bron scoro at 32oo ws is f 1:32.

not that it really matters...
 

Considering the light output we got at both the highest and the lowest power settings were identical for both systems, I'm not sure that's the case.  That's one of the huge problems in rating backs by Ws, ("Joules")- it tells you only how much electrical power is coming out of the pack, not how much light is coming out of the head- so any conclusions about relative apertures is suspect at best.  The way I've described it, it's like trying to compare how fast two cars go by looking at how much gas they use.  

It does, actually, matter-

[Conner999]

Agree. The issue of bi-tube heads is of no consequence as it will not change the relative performance of Pack A vs Pack B.  If you'll forgive a stupid analogy, adding 50hp to the engines of both a Ferrari X and and a Lambo Y won't change the relative performance specs between the two.

As for spec minutia, that's what the vendor website is for - and 1/2 the time they're either wrong, misleading, measured under ideal 'lab' conditions or at the very least at the spec 'sweet spot' of the system - a sweet spot that often no typical user would ever use. What I appreciate is the real life usage tests and hands-on qualitative commentary.

As far as I can tell you went into the test with an open mind and came out favoring the Profoto for reasons you discussed, based on criteria you thought important to you. If those criteria don't marry up to what someone else considers important, then they may favor the Bron - so be it. Everyone's criteria for the 'best' pack for them will vary. That's a good test IMHO. Enough of these "they're all perfect, just some more perfect than others' BS here's the re-worded company press packet 'reviews'.

You could have spent 6 weeks with multiple copies of both systems, with all the modifiers and heads they both make and tested every possible permutation and combination of 1001 variables under ideal lab conditions with 13 impartial observers with 2 doz Vogue covers, 6 Phd's and 250 yrs of studio experience under their collective belts and someone, somewhere, would call 'foul'. There is no winning for trying.  

Was the test 'perfect' by everyone's definition? No. Could it have been made 'perfect' by everyone's definition? No. Has anyone yet done one better/more valuable (that I've seen)? No. Should you do more? Yes. Everyone and his Aunt does lens/body 'tests'. There's a nice niche open here.

Now, personally I think testers have masochistic tendencies, but that's just me ;>

[teddillard]

Personally I think testers have hidden masochistic tendencies, but that's just me ;>

Thanks, I appreciate it.  Glad you found it helpful- we just got in the Dynalite and Profoto kits for testing, that's starting tomorrow, and the discussion here has been a great help.  

As far as the tester's lot, nah, don't worry about us.  I get to do what I always wanted to do when I sold the stuff, which was tell people what I really thought, (well, honestly, I always did that anyway, much to the dismay of my Sales Managers...) and I don't have to worry about actually selling the stuff.    

Oh, there are some fun things too...  8 cameras, 40GB, 4 hours, and a really fun model?  And I get paid for this?  

http://www.h2hreviews.com/blog/The-Shoot-D...s-and-40GB.html

[UlfKrentz]

Thanks, very kind.

FYI, I had the Product Managers for both systems working with me on both the systems, and the flash duration was one of our primary concentrations in the comparisons.  Again, why this wasn't brought up, I'm not sure, but even if it had the reality of putting together a review on any product is an endless trail of "what-ifs".  As you'll note, we elected to not address the light modeling accessories, a huge part of the decision to purchase into a system, for example.  The best we could try to do, without making the piece enormous, was to try to at least address the system at the "out of the box" stage- as we did with reflector coverage patterns.

http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...r-Coverage.html

It's been correctly noted here that you can, in fact, add on domes (in that case) to make the Bron kit perform more like the Profoto.  You can, theoretically, make any kit do whatever you need, but that would not make a very informative review.  It's actually kind of interesting to me that nobody has mentioned the range of light modeling equipment between the two lines.  I'm wondering if that is something people would like to see.  Anybody?

My theory, for what it's worth, is that if the flash duration halves with multi-tube heads, then you can predict the duration comparison with a single tube head just fine, thank you.  Although interesting, it doesn't tell you anything new about the comparisons.  Even if they had brought it up, I'm not sure I would have seen fit to include it in the testing.

As far as errors and oversights- one of the challenges of this type of review is the distinct lack of standardization in published specs.  Sinar calls Ws. Joules, for example.  They measure duration in different ways.  They both rate the system power in electrical output, not light output.  Translating the published specs and catching every error was incredibly time consuming, and if we made errors, which I'm not yet convinced we did, it was not for lack of a lot of hard work.   On the relatively simple issue of Automatic Voltage Switching, for example, in spite of the published specs we got into a week-long email exchange with 6 people from both camps confirming the facts.  That one spec, alone.  That's the kind of work that goes into any review like this...

Sorry for the long reply, now I have had adequate coffee...  

 

Hi Ted,

I think you should not feel offended personally, we all know it´s a lot of work to make these tests and whatever is done would have been done in a different way by other people. (I would have done it a different way, too). So you can never do it right. Bron and Profoto users tend to be very emotional about "their" brands. Regarding the twin tube lampbases: Using these lampbases on both systems would have resulted in a shorter duration, but would not show any difference of the packs. It would have been more interesting to use the same head on the two packs (Here in Germany you can have lampbases, that are custom made for different manufacturers packs). Firing the electrical energy (WS = J) through the same tube would have really shown the difference between the packs. It´s just 0,5f-stops, and it is easy to imagine that a different shape or surface of a reflektor causes this difference. This is the reason, why all strobe manufacturers use the electrical energy in their specs.
Knowing strobe equipment very well, being familiar with bron equipment I found this review interesting, though it contained some mistakes. I would have liked an answer to my earlier post regarding the flash duration setting / color shift on the scoro medium power test if you can remember. Thanks again.

Cheers, Ulf

[AlDoori]

Considering the light output we got at both the highest and the lowest power settings were identical for both systems, I'm not sure that's the case.

can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?

[UlfKrentz]

can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?

if it would have been set to speed-mode the max power is reduced to 2400J, right? That could also be a reason for the same light-output. Man, there are a lot of variables.

Cheers, Ulf

[teddillard]

can it be possible, that the scoroA4 was not set to "speed mode" in your test?

It was set to Speed mode in the duration tests, and the Speed mode was turned off for the power tests.

[AlDoori]

if it would have been set to speed-mode the max power is reduced to 2400J, right? That could also be a reason for the same light-output. Man, there are a lot of variables.

Cheers, Ulf

that is what was thinking.
in standard mode with 32oo ws (=32oo joule), it should, in theory be 1/3 stop brighter than a 24oo ws generator.

[teddillard]

Hi Ted,

I think you should not feel offended personally...

I would have liked an answer to my earlier post regarding the flash duration setting / color shift on the scoro medium power test if you can remember. Thanks again.

Cheers, Ulf

Oh, not at all offended personally, sorry if it sounded that way...  just trying to explain.  

As far as your earlier question, my apologies, we had the Color Controls turned on for all but the short-duration testing.  We also tested them at various power settings, with the CC on and off-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...onsistency.html

[AlDoori]

It was set to Speed mode in the duration tests...

speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.

[teddillard]

speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.

Not according to the Product Manager.

[AlDoori]

Not according to the Product Manager.

indeed, he is right.
i was not aware of that feature.

10. Special functions
10.1 Speed key (17)
When the speed key is activated, the corresponding LED lights blue and the maximum
flash energy of A2 models is reduced from 1600 J to 1200 J, and the energy of A4
models is reduced from 3200 J to 2400 J. The flash duration t0.1 is also reduced. In
speed operation, the optimum colour temperature is fractionally colder, however,
consistent over the energy adjustment range.

http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_oi_scoro_en.pdf

[UlfKrentz]

speed mode only has an effect on recyle time, not on flash duration.

Hi,

speed mode will not select the shortest flash duration, but makes kind of a compromise between correct lighting color and flash duration. It´s use is very comfortable but not short enough in many cases.
BTW, the color shift is extreme when set to shortest duration and very low power-setting, but with average power it´s not that much. If you only use Grafit / Scoro packs you can correct this light shift to blue with the greybalance setting of your cam anyway.

Yet another thing, sometimes you might want a longer flash duration, not freezing everything - you can set this with the Grafits / Scoros as well. These packs just give you more variations.

Cheers, Ulf

[teddillard]

deleted, double post

[teddillard]

If you only use Grafit / Scoro packs you can correct this light shift to blue with the greybalance setting of your cam anyway.

Cheers, Ulf

Funny, that's what the Bron folks told me too.  

Be careful with that- there's a difference between color accuracy and color consistency- if it's not on target, but consistent, you can fix it and it makes only a slight difference in file quality.  If it's inconsistent it has to be corrected file by file... then it's a problem.  

The Bron on the minimum "CC off" settings were inaccurate as well as the most inconsistent.

[UlfKrentz]

Oh, not at all offended personally, sorry if it sounded that way...  just trying to explain.  

As far as your earlier question, my apologies, we had the Color Controls turned on for all but the short-duration testing.  We also tested them at various power settings, with the CC on and off-
http://www.h2hreviews.com/article/Lighting...onsistency.html

Hi Ted,

that was no answer to my question. In one of your last replies you told us, the setting was made in speed mode. This would result in a slightly blue colorshift, whereas the wheel looks really yellow. Therefore I was wondering, what settings were made during this tests. Hmmm, owning a Profoto lampbase adapted to bron I think I try to get hands on a Pro8 and compare myself.

Cheers, Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

Funny, that's what the Bron folks told me too.  

Be careful with that- there's a difference between color accuracy and color consistency- if it's not on target, but consistent, you can fix it and it makes only a slight difference in file quality.  If it's inconsistent it has to be corrected file by file... then it's a problem.  

The Bron on the minimum "CC off" settings were inaccurate as well as the most inconsistent.

Hi Ted,

we never experienced a problem with color consistency in our work - not in fashion, not in still photography, where we often make different lighted shots and compose them together). But we normaly only use one head with one pack.

Just to be right understood: You cannot switch off CC, nearest setting would be the LONGEST possible flash duration. With the grafits you had that channel 3 that could not be IGBT-switched off or color influenced. With the Scoro all three channels are switched off through IGBTs. To achieve a shorter flash duration (and color-shift towards blue) the pack is charged to to higher voltage and switched off earlier, this is an active control, which does not at all mean turn CC off. There will be tolerances, possibly more tolerances when using several heads with widely spread power setting? But as told before, concerning color consistency and accuracy we are very happy with the bron equipment.

Cheers, Ulf

[teddillard]

Hi Ted,

that was no answer to my question. In one of your last replies you told us, the setting was made in speed mode. This would result in a slightly blue colorshift, whereas the wheel looks really yellow. Therefore I was wondering, what settings were made during this tests. Hmmm, owning a Profoto lampbase adapted to bron I think I try to get hands on a Pro8 and compare myself.

Cheers, Ulf

Not sure what I'm missing.  the CC controls were on, for all but the minimum duration tests, where I specify the CC was turned off.  For all the duration testing the Speed control was on.

[UlfKrentz]

Not sure what I'm missing.  the CC controls were on, for all but the minimum duration tests, where I specify the CC was turned off.  For all the duration testing the Speed control was on.

Never mind, I don´t want to create confusion. Thanks again.

Cheers, Ulf

[teddillard]

Never mind, I don´t want to create confusion. Thanks again.

Cheers, Ulf

Uh, I think I may get it now.  On the Scoros packs, you do get the option to turn the CC off, in the menu.  It says, "Color Control- OFF".  

Maybe you haven't seen the newest ones?  ...or am I still not understanding.

On the consistency issue, we were primarily concerned with "one head, one pack".  The consistency I'm speaking of is flash-to-flash, simple repeated pops from the same setup, and measuring the variation.  We tested in rapid succession, and also with several seconds between flashes.  

I'm glad you're happy with the equipment.  That's a lot of money to spend to be unhappy...  

Thanks for your input!