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Author Topic: Comparing low light performance of digital cameras  (Read 7149 times)

col

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« on: December 05, 2009, 05:48:23 pm »

The ability of a digital camera to provide low noise images under less-than-ideal lighting conditions is extremely important, and one of the major reasons why people choose an SLR style camera over a compact point-and-shoot model.
I would like put up for debate: What is the best method for quantitatively comparing the low light performance of different cameras?
In my experience, the almost universally adopted comparison method is as follows. For each camera under consideration, a photograph is taken of the same subject, at the same ISO setting, and either the exposure or aperture is adjusted for correct exposure. A full-scale crop of the image is then examined, and the “poorer performing” camera will show a noisier, less distinct image. I think we have all seen many comparisons of this type.

But what, exactly, does this test tell us? I contend that this test does not fundamentally tell us anything at all about which camera is capable of producing the best quality image in low light conditions. As a case in point, one of the cameras might have a very much faster lens, which surely would make it capable of taking lower noise images, yet this test will give no credit for that. Food for thought.


Therefore, there are two points that would appear to warrant further discussion.

(1) Does the almost universally adopted comparison method, as described, fundamentally tell us anything about which camera is capable of taking higher quality (=lower noise) images under low light conditions?

(2) If this comparison method is flawed, then what better method should be adopted?
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ddk

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2009, 06:37:47 pm »

Quote from: col
(1) Does the almost universally adopted comparison method, as described, fundamentally tell us anything about which camera is capable of taking higher quality (=lower noise) images under low light conditions?

I already have a problem with the assumption that higher quality = lower noise!

In my work the QUALITY of noise is very important. I often shoot at iso 600-800 and underexpose by 1.5-2.5 stops to introduce noise in my images. For me the camera that produces the best grain like noise without loosing DR, detail and tonal depth is the one with the highest quality files.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 06:40:36 pm by ddk »
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col

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 03:05:19 am »

Quote from: col
What is the best method for quantitatively comparing the low light performance of different cameras?
In my experience, the almost universally adopted comparison method is as follows. For each camera under consideration, a photograph is taken of the same subject, at the same ISO setting, and either the exposure or aperture is adjusted for correct exposure. A full-scale crop of the image is then examined, and the “poorer performing” camera will show a noisier, less distinct image.

But what, exactly, does this test tell us? I contend that this test does not fundamentally tell us anything at all about which camera is capable of producing the best quality image in low light conditions. As a case in point, one of the cameras might have a very much faster lens, which surely would make it capable of taking lower noise images, yet this test will give no credit for that. Food for thought.


Therefore, there are two points that would appear to warrant further discussion.

(1) Does the almost universally adopted comparison method, as described, fundamentally tell us anything about which camera is capable of taking higher quality (=lower noise) images under low light conditions?

(2) If this comparison method is flawed, then what better method should be adopted?

Firstly, I wish to make it clear that when I speak of a “camera”, I refer to the camera body with lens attached, as in the real world you can’t actually take a photo any other way.

I have read enough online camera reviews to know that the reviewers and audience alike place great significance in tests of the type described above, carefully examining image noise over the full range of ISO values, and thus concluding that one camera has better low light/image noise performance than another. Despite this, I have never read exactly what this test is supposed to tell us, or why. I maintain that this test/comparison method does not fundamentally tell us anything at all about which camera is the capable of producing the best quality image in low light conditions, because no credit is given for the speed of the lens.



A more meaningful method of comparing low light/image noise performance would be as follows:

(1)  For each camera under test, a photograph is taken of the same subject. The camera-to-subject distance and field of view must be the same for each camera.

(2) Each camera under test must use the same exposure time. Clearly, any camera permitted a longer exposure would be at an unfair advantage.

(3) Each camera is set to maximum aperture, as you would do in the real world when you are “flat out” having enough light to get a decent photo. Thus, credit is given to camera(s) with faster lenses, as it should be.

(4) Correct exposure is obtained by varying the ISO setting.

(5) Noise reduction should either be turned off, or at least all the cameras under test should use a similar amount of NR so that the resolved detail in the final images is similar.

(6) A full-scale crop of the image is then examined, and the “poorer performing” camera will show a noisier image.
 
(7) If the cameras have different numbers of pixels, the cropped images that are examined for image noise should be rescaled so they all appear the same absolute size on the output device.


In simple terms, all the cameras under test are doing the best they can in poor light and under identical constraints, and they are judged on the visible quality of the image. That is the test that matters in the real world, isn’t it?

Does anyone know what the more common test/comparison method is  supposed to show, where the image noise of competing cameras is compared at the same ISO setting?

To my way of thinking this is an important topic, as a large part of this forum is devoted to discussion of which camera is better than which other camera in terms of low light/image noise. Does anyone else out there have any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 04:22:07 am by col »
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col

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 06:32:32 am »

Quote from: ddk
I already have a problem with the assumption that higher quality = lower noise!

In my work the QUALITY of noise is very important. I often shoot at iso 600-800 and underexpose by 1.5-2.5 stops to introduce noise in my images. For me the camera that produces the best grain like noise without loosing DR, detail and tonal depth is the one with the highest quality files.
I don't think anyone would disagree that, in general, less noise is better, and no noise is best of all. Yes, I agree that some types of noise are more objectionable than others, and that signal processing (for example) can make the noise appear less objectionable, but most of us still want less of it, unless you are deliberately adding noise to create some special artistic effect.

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ddk

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 08:12:03 am »

Quote from: col
I don't think anyone would disagree that, in general, less noise is better, and no noise is best of all. Yes, I agree that some types of noise are more objectionable than others, and that signal processing (for example) can make the noise appear less objectionable, but most of us still want less of it, unless you are deliberately adding noise to create some special artistic effect.


You asked about our individual opinions not what most people prefer. I don't look for a noise free, high iso, camera, I'm sure that many might. I look for one that actually produces grain looking noise at the above mentioned iso settings, so the test methods that you described are worthless to me.
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david
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pegelli

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 08:23:23 am »

@col: since one of the key aspects of a DSLR is interchangeble lenses I do not agree to use the max aperture of the lens mounted to compare bodies (your rule 3). I think it's more meaningful to do it at the same aperture so you're looking at the inherent quality of the sensor/processing combo.

With your method a D700 with a 5.6 kit lens will be worse than a D70 which coincidentally mounted a 50/1.4. Still if I go low light shooting I'll take the D700 any day over the D70.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:26:28 am by pegelli »
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col

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 08:29:51 am »

Quote from: ddk
You asked about our individual opinions not what most people prefer. I don't look for a noise free, high iso, camera, I'm sure that many might. I look for one that actually produces grain looking noise at the above mentioned iso settings, so the test methods that you described are worthless to me.
Given your apparently unusual requirements, I agree with you completely. At the risk of moving the discussion into areas that are not relevant to my original thread, my curiousity has the better of me, and I have to ask why you would wish to deliberately create grainy looking noise in your images.
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Jeremy Payne

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 09:11:56 am »

Quote from: col
(1) Does the almost universally adopted comparison method, as described, fundamentally tell us anything about which camera is capable of taking higher quality (=lower noise) images under low light conditions?

(2) If this comparison method is flawed, then what better method should be adopted?

Are you familiar with DXOmark?  There are other ways to compare than the method you describe.

Poke around ... http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Techn...haracterization
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ddk

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 01:13:04 pm »

Quote from: col
Given your apparently unusual requirements, I agree with you completely. At the risk of moving the discussion into areas that are not relevant to my original thread, my curiousity has the better of me, and I have to ask why you would wish to deliberately create grainy looking noise in your images.


Its a question of aesthetics, often, very clean digital images of my type of subject matter, nudes, looks flat and lifeless to me. I'm able to light my subjects and shoot at lower iso settings if I want a clean look.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 09:29:38 pm by ddk »
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BernardLanguillier

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 06:57:33 pm »

Quote from: col
But what, exactly, does this test tell us? I contend that this test does not fundamentally tell us anything at all about which camera is capable of producing the best quality image in low light conditions. As a case in point, one of the cameras might have a very much faster lens, which surely would make it capable of taking lower noise images, yet this test will give no credit for that. Food for thought.

Besides the fact that more rigorous methods exist (DxO was already mentioned), the one you describe is just a quick shortcut for the best possible test: a print of the image at the target size.

For the rest, the ability to use a faster lens is basically same for all cameras among the major brands, except for some line up shortcomings, and I find it to be a huge stretch to claim that the lack of a 35mm f1.4 in Sony's line up makes the A900 less of a low light camera.

So the simple answer to your question is clear: the current approach makes sense.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 08:20:51 pm »

Hi,

To my best knowledge there is a 35/1.4G in the Sony lens line, it seems to be horribly expensive but not really good.

Adding to the complexity, noise may also depend on processing. The Sony is a good example of that, at 3200 or 6400 ISO Lightroom 2 is quite horrible but Lightroom 3 Beta is quite promising regarding noise. DR is not impressive on Lightroom 3Beta either, tough.

Erik

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Besides the fact that more rigorous methods exist (DxO was already mentioned), the one you describe is just a quick shortcut for the best possible test: a print of the image at the target size.

For the rest, the ability to use a faster lens is basically same for all cameras among the major brands, except for some line up shortcomings, and I find it to be a huge stretch to claim that the lack of a 35mm f1.4 in Sony's line up makes the A900 less of a low light camera.

So the simple answer to your question is clear: the current approach makes sense.

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 06:49:41 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

To my best knowledge there is a 35/1.4G in the Sony lens line, it seems to be horribly expensive but not really good.

Oops, wrong example then.  

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 03:34:52 pm »

Quote from: col
Firstly, I wish to make it clear that when I speak of a “camera”, I refer to the camera body with lens attached, as in the real world you can’t actually take a photo any other way.
Col,
    I strongly agree that judgements of low light handling, DOF control and such only make sense in reference to a complete working camera, with lens. Or as a variation, the judgement could be made for a particular kit or system: a  body plus the lenses that are available to use with it, where "available" might reflect the practical limits on the size, weight, cost etc. of the lenses that a particular user is wiling and able to use. For example, it is of no direct use to me to judge the low light performance of the Canon 5DMkII at 600mm by tests using the Canon 600mm f/4 lens, because the fastest 600mm option for me would be a 300/4 with 2x TC (so 600mm, f/8).

I have a prejudice of course: when I compare my 4/3 kit with a pair of f/2.8-3.5 lenses, the main low-light performance comparisons are to EF-S and DX systems with similarly priced lenses from Canon and Nikon, all of which f/3.5-4.5 or slower, and mostly f/3.5-5.6. If my cost and weight budget ran to a pair of constant f/2.8 zooms, the low light performance comparison would change substantially.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 03:40:13 pm by BJL »
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Guillermo Luijk

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 03:43:54 pm »

Quote from: col
For each camera under consideration, a photograph is taken of the same subject, at the same ISO setting, and either the exposure or aperture is adjusted for correct exposure. A full-scale crop of the image is then examined, and the “poorer performing” camera will show a noisier, less distinct image. I think we have all seen many comparisons of this type.
If you want to compare cameras and know which will serve you best in low light conditions, that comparing method is wrong.

You have to decide what aperture and shutter you will use, and once these two variables have been set, try to get the best from each of the cameras under comparision. And this means rising the ISO as much as needed in the cameras to expose as much as possible before clipping the highlights. Then compare noise at the final image size (or in 100% crops but always bearing in mind that more Mpx means less noise once rescaled to the same final size).

If you adjust aperture and shutter differently on each camera, you are not being fair with those cameras that will receive less light according to these settings.

Sorry if someone already said the same as me but I have not time now to read the entire thread.

Regards

col

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Comparing low light performance of digital cameras
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 04:07:37 pm »

Quote from: BJL
Col,
    I strongly agree that judgements of low light handling, DOF control and such only make sense in reference to a complete working camera, with lens. Or as a variation, the judgement could be made for a particular kit or system: a  body plus the lenses that are available to use with it, where "available" might reflect the practical limits on the size, weight, cost etc. of the lenses that a particular user is wiling and able to use. For example, it is of no direct use to me to judge the low light performance of the Canon 5DMkII at 600mm by tests using the Canon 600mm f/4 lens, because the fastest 600mm option for me would be a 300/4 with 2x TC (so 600mm, f/8).

I have a prejudice of course: when I compare my 4/3 kit with a pair of f/2.8-3.5 lenses, the main low-light performance comparisons are to EF-S and DX systems with similarly priced lenses from Canon and Nikon, all of which f/3.5-4.5 or slower, and mostly f/3.5-5.6. If my cost and weight budget ran to a pair of constant f/2.8 zooms, the low light performance comparison would change substantially.

Hi and "thank you" to BJL and everyone else that has responded on this thread. I'm new here, and foolishly started two threads at the same time, with the result that I have not had time as yet to talk more on this thread. The replies so far have been of great interest to me, and helped crytallize my own ideas. I will certainly share some more ideas when I have time, hopefully soon. I don't think this thread has run it's course yet, by a long way ....

Col
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