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Author Topic: Leica S2  (Read 31001 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Leica S2
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2009, 01:13:00 am »

Hi,

Offering some kind of conversion of R-lenses to CaNikon would have been nice R-customers once R-line was put down.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: Christopher
Because they are stupid in some ways ^^
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BernardLanguillier

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Leica S2
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2009, 03:03:11 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Offering some kind of conversion of R-lenses to CaNikon would have been nice R-customers once R-line was put down.

Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:

http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rob C

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Leica S2
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2009, 03:48:00 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:

http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.

Cheers,
Bernard





Bernard

I wrote to Leitz once asking whether they would ever make their lenses availlable in mounts for third party cameras as it would hugely raise their market share for lenses. Their response was to ignore the question and inform me that they made excellent slr cameras and suggested I consider them... apart from being no reply at all, it suggests that the writer knows nothng about the market about which he is asking the question; a double insult. Asking the original question is not an insult - it is an offer to purchase equipment that would not have otherwise been bought or even considered.

Strange people.

Rob C

pegelli

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Leica S2
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2009, 05:28:09 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:

http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

Same shop also has them for Pentax, Sigma, Sony (=Konica/Minolta A) and Canon.
I've never used them, but seen lots of positive reports on quality of the replacement mount and the job is fully reversible (if you ever find an R-body you would like to re-use your modified lens on)
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pieter, aka pegelli

archivue

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Leica S2
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2009, 06:33:20 am »

i'm using contax zeiss lens on canon also... but lenses like ZE zeiss have a chip in it for focus confirmation...

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rainer_v

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Leica S2
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2009, 07:56:43 am »

Quote from: psorantin
That is a very European statement.... i.e. if somebody develops something new, the first thing (we) Europeans do, is to find reasons why it can't work.
Most often the conclusion then is "let's not get even started".
Kudos to Leica to not fall into this trap.

The US mentality is to not look left or right, just do it, since we are in the US, it gotta be the best and the biggest. After a while, reality catches up with the development. But the product has been developed then, and there is a chance that improvements iron out initial shortcomings.

Regarding Firewire: Its basically dead, since Apple moves away from it.
I think Carsten had a point by saying that a bigger buffer, file compression and firmware improvements can help with tethering speed.

And: Hasn't the poll here shown that 1/3 of photogs don't insist on tethering?
If somebody builds a new car, targeting it to 1/3 of the driver population is not bad.
--

In a nutshell: I am (not?) surprised how negatively people react. Particularly on a fixable IT-type issue. Folks here seem to behave like computer freaks. Any photographic features of the camera, like handling, the "process" of shooting with it, lenses, shutter options seems to be irrelevant. I find that a bit surprising.

Peter
you should not quote me and leave out the context of what i wrote.
i dont think its very european to have doubts in its competence if a company has released formerly several products with deep design mistakes, and this is what i wrote. i am not in general sceptical to new developements, at contrary. so pls. dont cut out single sentences and dont copy the rest which shows what i expressed:
i wrote:
"after i listened the announcement of the s2 1,5 years ago i immediately thought that i cant believe that leica will do it right,- if ever this camera will see the market.
now its here, and big shortcomings with it. i didnt expected anything better after this strange DMR system ( and that there did not came a DMR2 ) and after the M8 with its glorious thin ir glass. making such deep design mistakes in their digital department i couldnt see how leica would be able and how it could have the knowhow to make a 100% working new digital concept."
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

ErikKaffehr

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Leica S2
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2009, 10:51:11 am »

Hi,

Yes, I'm aware of that. What I essentially ment is that Leica it self should have made some effort in enabling the use of their R-lenses with Nikon or canon with as much functionality kept as possible. Folks have invested in that platform in good faith and than Leica just laid down the R-seies.

Best regards
Erik




Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Already available for Nikon through 3rd party:

http://www.leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I have already bought one, I am just missing the Leica lens.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 12:09:13 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Mr. Rib

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Leica S2
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2009, 11:56:38 am »

In such a small and demanding (!) market, crossing out 1/3rd of potential customers in the very beginning (or should I say before it) is a HUGE mistake and such an act doesn't fall into 'it's still not that bad' category from marketing point of view. It's a suicide. no, it WOULD be a suicide, because it's not their target. The target is a wealthy mid-aged european / asian guy who likes shiny logos on their toys.

I wouldn't be too suprpised if the sample shots from Havana were taken with a MKII
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 11:59:49 am by Mr. Rib »
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gwhitf

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Leica S2
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2009, 12:45:26 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Rib
The target is a wealthy mid-aged european / asian guy who likes shiny logos on their toys.

Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ
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mahleu

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Leica S2
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2009, 01:22:07 pm »

Perhaps Leica should send everyone in this thread their next model before release as it
seems that the testers didn't really do their job.
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rainer_v

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Leica S2
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2009, 03:49:04 pm »

i think you guys are wrong.
leica did the best they could do, unfortunately they couldnt do better and this is the problem.
leica cant survive with collectors and hobbyists with this S system and its not their plan too. even the r system is not from much interest by collectors, the s not at all. it always was the M which was holding  leicas head over the water. and the S is not a camera, where all developement costs are since 45 years written of. but at all it is just another example  of a company which is not up to the task of our times  and came out with gear which isnt thought enough and finished enough.
not different to the other mf companies which already went belly up or are on the way to do that.
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rainer viertlböck
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Mr. Rib

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Leica S2
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2009, 05:11:42 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Leica does extensive Market Research, to determine the most discriminating clients. The S2 was based on this man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2SSZA0CjdQ

Oh noes! They totally mind-washed me with that commercial during last NBA playoffs

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Nemo

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Leica S2
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2010, 08:30:57 pm »

Quote from: pschefz
leica calls the S2 their studio camera for the studio shooter....many here are simply disappointed (including myself) and amazed that something as simple as steady tethered shooting at a industry standard frame rate just isn't there....a usb port for a 40mpix camera smells already pretty bad and 20sec per image just kills it....i would really think that in the big picture of designing a camera and lenses these things would be easy or smaller problems....so the question is what was leica thinking? sure a lot of people will like it, but it is just plain stupid to cut out people who might want it really bad but simply can't use it because tether speed is beyond bad....

i am truly amazed because the m8 which nobody would consider a studio camera is a very solid tethered performer....of course the files are a lot smaller....regardless....sinar, phase, hass, leaf...they all have much, much faster tethered speed....the biggest market for these backs still requires it...


I think Leica is working on support for the last DNG specification and (I suppose) lossless compression. USB is a more or less passive data highway (FW has built in controllers), so some kind of update to 3.0 specifications should be possible. Anyway, Apple itself is preparing the adoption of USB3 and eSATA for high speed communication ports in future Macs. They don't support chains of devices or target mode, but Apple is filling patents for bringing these "FW features" to USB3 and eSATA. Leica made a decision based on long term support. FW may disappear sooner than expected by many.


http://www.faq-mac.com/noticias/38313/appl...lementacion-usb

http://www.applesfera.com/apple/una-nueva-...-interfaz-esata

(Sorry, it is in Spanish, but you can find links to the English-written sources)
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Nemo

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Leica S2
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2010, 08:34:18 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
I have been thinking some more about this, and while I hope that Leica adds more RAM to make the buffer larger than 6 images, I think that the tethering issue ought to be solvable. The theoretical max. throughput of Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 are within 10% of each other... There is some protocol overhead in USB, but there should be no reason for Leica not to be able to pull within 20% of the performance of the P40+ setup. It is just a question of tuning the firmware in the camera and the software on the computer. I guess they need to just get out there and hire two of the top programmers in the field at whatever cost, and get it done.

If they can do this, if they fix the 6-image buffer (for example by giving 2:1 compression), then the USB port starts to look like a hidden benefit, if USB 3 can be supported. Apple seems to add less and less FW to their computers these days, and it is hard to find a decent computer from anyone else with FW. I am a big FW fan, but I have the creeping feeling that the party is almost over. Cheap wins, yet again.

I agree.
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Nemo

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« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2010, 08:36:41 pm »

Quote from: Christopher
Because they are stupid in some ways ^^

That is not the reason.

I think japanese companies don't give access to their patents to Leica for this. Leica asked Canon years ago and the answer was "no".

Why Zeiss has access to the EOS mount? Just because the manufacturer is Cosina, a japanese company. They got the key, not Zeiss.

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leicaman94044

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Leica S2
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2010, 12:34:09 am »

post deleted
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 12:37:55 am by leicaman94044 »
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fredjeang

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Leica S2
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2010, 05:20:44 am »

Quote from: John-S
Camera companies need to seriously do as photographers ask for in specs not just listen and pick and choose. There are plenty of $1-3K cameras with better buffers and tethering, cameras that may not even be used all that much for their buffer or better tethering. Leica needs to wake up. Buying a camera on looks and label alone went out in 2008. It's a new world.

Oh yeh, this is a 160-320 ISO camera. They should just cap it off there. 1250 ISO should never be an option. The original Canon 1Ds had better 1250. That was in 2002.

I think one very large concept that Leica doesn't demonstrate it understands is that digital cameras are computers, not just cameras. Leica was and is a camera company. If they want to be a digital camera company then churn out product better and faster, with sizable improvements to their own products but also to competitors' products.
+1 ! Thank you for this post. This is something I've been thinking for decades, not doing it they ended put their company and all the humans being involved in a high risk. A lot of people (and posters) still think that we (the users) should not critized legendary brands like Leica because of the condesending aspect, I disagree with this position because actualy, too many decisions made by "super wised executives" (extremely well paid) are incoherent and dangerous.

I do not see why the S2 would not have an interchangeable sensor unit with the same design, according to the target. Ricoh did it in a compact cam (but did it badly). This is totaly incoherent, absolutely stupid and the consequences will not last very long to emerge, even if we like to think that Leica knows what their doing...
As I work in advertising, I can tell you that we see (in the last 10 years) emerging a new generation of young, agresive, incompetent and condesendant executives, specialy in the marketing area, that have power and use it pretty badly. When I read in some posts that "Leica can't be that stupid" or "they would not made such mistakes because they know better than us what they are doing"...I want to answer: "ah yes?...lets see in 5 years, if they are still here because of their wised decisions". Look what they have done with ( and for ) their R users, wich would have been a natural choice instead of puting themselves in an imperfect system that is not likely to be competitive in this segment. Now, Nikon and Canon users have all these R lenses for their gear...
Oh, and by the way, the international crisis we just had...how could it be? if economy is in hand of super competent people who knows what their doing and won't be so stupid.
 
And apart of the performance problem
Can someone tells me what is the selling point (the strength) of a camera that will be obsolete in a few years while in other systems you just have to upgrade the back? Or this jewel is actually targeting the very rich photographer who is looking for a gift for himself to commemorate his 40 anniversary of professional career?!?...The only possible exit I see for this model will be a tempting price wich I doubt will happen.

Is the fact that their Raw size is bigger an indication that it capture more data? Is the buffer speed coherent with the camera design and pro needs?

I agree with GWHITF post that S2 is NOT targeting the pro but the very wealthy amateurs who are looking for a kind of "porshe design" that would suit with their Porshe cars. Not targeting either the R users who have moved to other brands.
It is sad, but it is true.

Fred.


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JdeV

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Leica S2
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2010, 05:36:37 am »

I have no dog in this fight and perhaps this has been noted before but Chasseur d'Images, the French photographic magazine, has a fairly comprehensive test of the S2.

They did a detailed comparison of test images against the D3x. Image quality looked good. A significant jump in detail from the D3x. More noise at higher ISOs but manageable.
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ddk

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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2010, 03:44:25 pm »

If anyone has the gall to introduce an ultra expensive camera, without even a basic lens line up nor bother to come up with a halfway decent dedicated raw converter, and call it a pro product, its Leica. It seems to me that as long as there's a red dot, its holy.

The die hard Leica fan must be a different animal. The M8 fiasco should have killed them outright; they sold a faulty product which they tried to coverup and lie about, at a very high prices. Instead what did they do when the proverbial $hit hit the fan? Absolutely nothing! They convinced the groupies to spend more money for overpriced filters and stick them on top of their very expensive glass and these people bought into it. WTF, I rest my case...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 03:45:23 pm by ddk »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2010, 04:02:08 pm »

Hi,

I'd suggest you may be wrong on the raw converter issue, we don't need more raw converters we need a couple of good ones. The lens line may broaden with time.

I'm not sure of how the S2 fits in the market. The MF market seems to be limited and dominated by Hasselblad and Phase One. The professional/well-heeled amateur market can probably accept the prices Leica has, if the system lives up to expectations.

Leica can also probably improve the camera and correct some issues with firmware upgrades.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: ddk
If anyone has the gall to introduce an ultra expensive camera, without even a basic lens line up nor bother to come up with a halfway decent dedicated raw converter, and call it a pro product, its Leica. It seems to me that as long as there's a red dot, its holy.

The die hard Leica fan must be a different animal. The M8 fiasco should have killed them outright; they sold a faulty product which they tried to coverup and lie about, at a very high prices. Instead what did they do when the proverbial $hit hit the fan? Absolutely nothing! They convinced the groupies to spend more money for overpriced filters and stick them on top of their very expensive glass and these people bought into it. WTF, I rest my case...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 12:04:38 am by ErikKaffehr »
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