Ergonomic features of MFD cameras

[cunim]

After years of exotic scientific imaging and much less time with a full frame DSLR, I am in the happy position of booking demonstrations from Phase and Hasselblad.  I will order a P65/645 or H3D50/H4D60upgrade very soon.  Looking forward to using whichever back I select with an Alpa as well.  Wish someone made a full frame 645 back and traded off some resolution for dynamic range, but I guess that is not where the market is.

Given the chip technology, I expect the Hassy and Phase backs to image about the same but the feature engineering is wildly different.  Phase appears to do some rudimentary image processing in the back (binning I think) and that is great for lower light.  Hassy gives us a nicer display to help my aging eyes check focus (no live-view, alas), and the AF lock transposition.  Hassy claims improved data transfer tethered - to be checked.  In the end, I suppose it will just come down to which handles better in my somewhat strange applications (mostly indoors, static objects, wide and tall).

I can deal with the technical comparisons but lack a user's perspective.  Elegant technology is rendered useless by a poor user interface.  As appreciative as I am of the characteristics of large detectors and high volume lenses, I do this for pleasure.  Are there key ergonomic factors to look for or do all MF cameras cause suffering?  If I can get some views about this I can be better prepared for the demos.

[Dick Roadnight]

I can deal with the technical comparisons but lack a user's perspective.  Elegant technology is rendered useless by a poor user interface.  As appreciative as I am of the characteristics of large detectors and high volume lenses, I do this for pleasure.  Are there key ergonomic factors to look for or do all MF cameras cause suffering?  If I can get some views about this I can be better prepared for the demos.

The H3D11-50 with the 50-110 zoom makes a very good 4kg bumble, but you might want on for each hand?

You give little info about your applications ... will you be using a tripod?  vertical or landscape? flash? synchro with daylight or room light?

Will you be using a view camera all the time or MFDSLR too?

[gdwhalen]

I'm not sure anyone else can answer that question for you.  I have heard that people have problems with the inner buttons on the Hassy hand grip but I have big hands and have no problems at all.  Also, I don't think the camera is heavy.  Some do.  I have no problem holding the camera for a vertical.  Some do.  My personal belief is that you will get used to whatever camera you decide to buy.  Just don't buy into the comments you read in forums.  Some people just like to complain.  Anyone that thinks the Hasselblad H3d-50 is heavy, in my mind, needs to get some exercise.

[cunim]

The H3D11-50 with the 50-110 zoom makes a very good 4kg bumble, but you might want on for each hand?

You give little info about your applications ... will you be using a tripod?  vertical or landscape? flash? synchro with daylight or room light?

Will you be using a view camera all the time or MFDSLR too?

I like to image aircraft, parts of aircraft, and other transport machinery.  These tend to have lots of prongy bits and extended specular surfaces, surrounding deep shadows - think radial engine nacelles, props and wings.  

Horses for courses.  Tripod, usually tethered for this work and the DSLR for freehand.  View camera for stitching, which I used to do a great deal of on microscopes.  XY was alawys pretty easy but Z, now that was interesting.

Both vertical and landscape (think propellor and wing, for eg).  Favorite FF lengths are in the 16-24mm range, and then up around 100 mm.  Usually indoor flash in the winter and some daylight outdoors when it's warm enough.  Glady admit to being a dilettante.

What is a bumble?

[UlfKrentz]

What is a bumble?

"The H3D11-50 with the 50-110 zoom makes a very good 4kg bumble, but you might want on for each hand?"

I think he meant something like a dumbbell...you won´t need two, you´ll have enough time to change hands between the shots ;-)

Cheers Ulf

[Lawrie_Hope]

After years of exotic scientific imaging and much less time with a full frame DSLR, I am in the happy position of booking demonstrations from Phase and Hasselblad.  I will order a P65/645 or H3D50/H4D60upgrade very soon.  Looking forward to using whichever back I select with an Alpa as well.  Wish someone made a full frame 645 back and traded off some resolution for dynamic range, but I guess that is not where the market is.

Given the chip technology, I expect the Hassy and Phase backs to image about the same but the feature engineering is wildly different.  Phase appears to do some rudimentary image processing in the back (binning I think) and that is great for lower light.  Hassy gives us a nicer display to help my aging eyes check focus (no live-view, alas), and the AF lock transposition.  Hassy claims improved data transfer tethered - to be checked.  In the end, I suppose it will just come down to which handles better in my somewhat strange applications (mostly indoors, static objects, wide and tall).

I can deal with the technical comparisons but lack a user's perspective.  Elegant technology is rendered useless by a poor user interface.  As appreciative as I am of the characteristics of large detectors and high volume lenses, I do this for pleasure.  Are there key ergonomic factors to look for or do all MF cameras cause suffering?  If I can get some views about this I can be better prepared for the demos.

Hi there,

I would also also consider the Leaf Aptus II 7 or 10 back with the 645DF, the back has a fabulous bright, touch-screen Graphic user interface, the raw files (mos) can be opened by all 3rd party softwares as well as Leaf Capture and the new version of Capture One. Remember Leaf have more experience with the Dalsa sensors than any other manufacturer. Leaf, for instance, does not 'fiddle' with the file in-camera, preferring to allow the individual photographer to make any adjustments based on their, not the back manufacturers criteria. There are marked differences between the quality of images from all the different manufacturers, admittedly some of these differences are subjective, but evaluate all before you make your decision.

Good Luck

[Dick Roadnight]

I like to image aircraft, parts of aircraft, and other transport machinery.  These tend to have lots of prongy bits and extended specular surfaces, surrounding deep shadows - think radial engine nacelles, props and wings.  

Horses for courses.  Tripod, usually tethered for this work and the DSLR for freehand.  View camera for stitching, which I used to do a great deal of on microscopes.  XY was alawys pretty easy but Z, now that was interesting.

Both vertical and landscape (think propellor and wing, for eg).  Favorite FF lengths are in the 16-24mm range, and then up around 100 mm.  Usually indoor flash in the winter and some daylight outdoors when it's warm enough.  Glady admit to being a dilettante.

I also want to do landscapes and architecture, but your requirements and techniques seem very similar to mine...

My brother has asked me re photos in the Vehicle museum he is involved with, I have a range of close-up and macro lenses (up to 25:1), and I am thinking of getting a microscope.

I want a three-stitch back to cover 6*9 (P3) with the H4D-60.

I have four Metz flashes, which would be very useful for a lot of what you do, and four 1,500 kWs Elinchromes which would be useful for backgrounds or whole aircraft or hanger shots.

For large subjects I am thinking of using two pocket wizards, one to fire the camera, and one to fire the flashes, so that one can walk round a subject or building, taking a series of pictures that you can combine in Photoshop... With 4 big Metzs I would hope to be able to light up one bay of a cathedral or hanger at a time...

Where are you?

[Steve Hendrix]

I'm not sure anyone else can answer that question for you.  I have heard that people have problems with the inner buttons on the Hassy hand grip but I have big hands and have no problems at all.  Also, I don't think the camera is heavy.  Some do.  I have no problem holding the camera for a vertical.  Some do.  My personal belief is that you will get used to whatever camera you decide to buy.  Just don't buy into the comments you read in forums.  Some people just like to complain.  Anyone that thinks the Hasselblad H3d-50 is heavy, in my mind, needs to get some exercise.

If you remove the lenses from a Canon 5DMKII, a 1DS-MKIII, an H3D, and a Phase One DF with P1 DB, the weight from these very different systems is very very close. The differences will come primarily from the lenses, so if weight is a consideration, factor in the lenses you would use.


Steve Hendrix

[cunim]

If you remove the lenses from a Canon 5DMKII, a 1DS-MKIII, an H3D, and a Phase One DF with P1 DB, the weight from these very different systems is very very close. The differences will come primarily from the lenses, so if weight is a consideration, factor in the lenses you would use.


Steve Hendrix

I understand re the weight, but no way around that I guess.

Ergonommics go beyond button arrangments.  What about the bodies?  How do people find their bodies feel after a period of use? - hmm, that could be misconstrued.

What I man is the solid feel of a well-made machine is held into its life span.  Lesser devices get creaky compartment edges, bearing surface slop, gritty adjustments.  The traditional "plastic" feel.  I think Hassy used to be very good but not sure about the more recent H series?  The Phase/Mamiya cameras look kind of - disposable.  Is this just appearance?

Lenses - do they focus smoothly, hold focus position, and hold internal tolerances oover time?  Used to have some Nikon lenses that would slowly spin on the threads if held vertical.  Annoying if you need to keep sending the things in for adjustment.  I assume MF lenses must be made to very high mounting tolerances (particularly the newer digital ones) and that means they will be very sensitive to internal movement.  Anyone seen a change in MTF over time or after tapping the lens on something?

How about a survey?  Do you feel that your system manufacturer creates a high quality body - yes/no/don't care.  Same for lens construction.  Let's leave image quality out of this. Physical quality is what I am after here, and whether it passes the test of time.

[Wayne Fox]

I understand re the weight, but no way around that I guess.

Ergonommics go beyond button arrangments.  What about the bodies?  How do people find their bodies feel after a period of use? - hmm, that could be misconstrued.

What I man is the solid feel of a well-made machine is held into its life span.  Lesser devices get creaky compartment edges, bearing surface slop, gritty adjustments.  The traditional "plastic" feel.  I think Hassy used to be very good but not sure about the more recent H series?  The Phase/Mamiya cameras look kind of - disposable.  Is this just appearance?

Lenses - do they focus smoothly, hold focus position, and hold internal tolerances oover time?  Used to have some Nikon lenses that would slowly spin on the threads if held vertical.  Annoying if you need to keep sending the things in for adjustment.  I assume MF lenses must be made to very high mounting tolerances (particularly the newer digital ones) and that means they will be very sensitive to internal movement.  Anyone seen a change in MTF over time or after tapping the lens on something?

How about a survey?  Do you feel that your system manufacturer creates a high quality body - yes/no/don't care.  Same for lens construction.  Let's leave image quality out of this. Physical quality is what I am after here, and whether it passes the test of time.

Well, here's my 2 cents ...

I own both an H1 system (currently for sale)  and now the PhaseOne DF system.  I think both are pretty well built, decently durable (they are no Canon 1D series or Nikon D3x). I rarely handhold, but for the times I have, I would say they are about the same.  Personally I like the overall button/dial layout of the Phase camera better ...I'm not one for modal buttons and dialogs.  Probably why I prefer the 5D Mark2 over the 1DsMark3.  The new DF dramatically improves the usability of the Phase camera, fixing most of the things that annoyed me about the AF model.  As mentioned in Michaels report, after the new firmware is released the DF will be even more ideal for me, since you can set everything on the backs display (no squinting at the tiny top display).

I like the Mamiya lenses better but I can't explain why (probably because I just dropped a boatload of money into them).  The Phase 75-150 seems a more useful range for what I do than the hasselblad 50-110, although i do find myself using the mamiya 55-110 more than I thought I would.

so I prefer the Phase/Mamiya system.

Personally I think most will "prefer" the one they have invested in (as they should), which to me says they're both pretty good. Somehow need to get your hands on both, and decide which you like better, or which lens lineup seems more suitable.

(After attending PODAS, I also believe Phase is very interested in improving their camera and lenses - very anxious to speak with end users about what they would like to see in future firmware and/or body upgrades. Their alliance with Schneider to me is pretty significant indication of their desire for outstanding optics as well.)