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Author Topic: Review of Mamiya DF  (Read 8858 times)

mcfoto

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Review of Mamiya DF
« on: November 23, 2009, 03:06:37 am »

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../phase-DF.shtml
Thanks Michael for the great review.
Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2009, 04:18:20 am »

In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.

Speaking of which, I assume 1/800 is the fastest speed of the leaf shutter? How is 1/1,600 achieved?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:21:02 am by foto-z »
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Christopher

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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 04:58:48 am »

Quote from: foto-z
In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.

Speaking of which, I assume 1/800 is the fastest speed of the leaf shutter? How is 1/1,600 achieved?

I don't know how, but it works great.
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Christopher Hauser
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 05:45:46 am »

Quote from: Christopher
I don't know how, but it works great.

My point is, if 1/800 is the maximum speed of the leaf shutter, then how do you even make an exposure at 1/1600?
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Jozef Zajaz

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Review of Mamiya DF
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2009, 05:55:16 am »

Quote from: foto-z
My point is, if 1/800 is the maximum speed of the leaf shutter, then how do you even make an exposure at 1/1600?


Probably some delay on the back. As it only works on p40+ and p65+ (the newer models)
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2009, 06:01:18 am »

Quote from: Jozef Zajaz
Probably some delay on the back. As it only works on p40+ and p65+ (the newer models)

Ok, so I assume the back still needs to read the data from the sensor in darkness (I think all CCDs work this way) and therefore the sensor is reset and begins to collect data halfway through the 1/1800 exposure time? If so, the flash sync signal must also be delayed. Just trying to figure this feature out.
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michael

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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2009, 08:27:04 am »

Quote from: foto-z
In the bullet points it is written "1/800 sec flash sync" which is wrong and a bit misleading for those who don't read the whole article. It is still 1/125 for the vast majority of cases.

Why is it wrong and misleading? The 645DF is sold as a kit with the 80mm LS lens. This lens has 1/800 sync. The body has 1./125 sync with other lenses and its FP shutter, and 1/1600 sync with an LS lens and a P40+ pr P65+.

I suppose one could write a paragraph such as the above so that nit pickers aren't offended, but it would seriously impede the flow of information don't you think?

Michael
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2009, 09:06:58 am »

Quote from: michael
Why is it wrong and misleading?

Because to the newcomer it implies that this is a leaf shutter system like the Hasselblad H or Hy6, and that this sync speed is universal for the whole system. The reality is that 90+% of the shots taken with this camera will not be taken with a leaf shutter and will not enjoy this sync speed.

And it wouldn't take a paragraph to clarify. "1/125 or up to 1/1600 with leaf shutter lenses" would make it clear to all
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 09:07:28 am by foto-z »
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olaf

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Review of Mamiya DF
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2009, 09:17:12 am »

IMHO the original copy was completely clear. Well said Michael

FWIW I had a short time with the 645DF earlier this week. For me the AF speed has jumped a big distance from 'appalling' to 'acceptable'. I'll be testing one with the 80mm Schneider lens shortly. If it performs, then I'll upgrade from the AFD3. Thanks for the review.

Olaf


www.olafwilloughby.com

Quote from: michael
Why is it wrong and misleading? The 645DF is sold as a kit with the 80mm LS lens. This lens has 1/800 sync. The body has 1./125 sync with other lenses and its FP shutter, and 1/1600 sync with an LS lens and a P40+ pr P65+.

I suppose one could write a paragraph such as the above so that nit pickers aren't offended, but it would seriously impede the flow of information don't you think?

Michael
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michael

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 09:51:38 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Because to the newcomer it implies that this is a leaf shutter system like the Hasselblad H or Hy6, and that this sync speed is universal for the whole system.

Fair enough. I've modified the listing accordingly.

Michael
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BobDavid

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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2009, 10:22:17 am »

How does the Mamiya DF AF work in low light? The Hasselblad H lenses do fairly well.
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lisa_r

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Review of Mamiya DF
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2009, 10:32:31 am »

Thanks for the review Michael.

"Faster shutter responsiveness"

Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)
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michael

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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 10:46:36 am »

I don't understand the question about how the camera responds in "low light". Could you rephrase it? What exactly are you referring to?

There is definitely less shutter lag than the previous model, but I can't put a number to it.

Michael
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:52:10 am by michael »
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 04:05:26 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Ok, so I assume the back still needs to read the data from the sensor in darkness (I think all CCDs work this way) and therefore the sensor is reset and begins to collect data halfway through the 1/1800 exposure time? If so, the flash sync signal must also be delayed. Just trying to figure this feature out.


I asked about this at PODAS.  1/1600th is achieved using a combination of the leaf shutter and "electronic" shutter if you have the 645DF and newer back.  How it actually works I'm not sure, what you describe sounds like fair description of a possibility.  

I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.
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Jozef Zajaz

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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2009, 04:14:13 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Thanks for the review Michael.

"Faster shutter responsiveness"

Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)


Yes the shutter responsive is very good. I was very impressed with the improvements over tha p1 body. Also af is alot faster.
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Jozef Zajaz

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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2009, 04:14:49 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I asked about this at PODAS.  1/1600th is achieved using a combination of the leaf shutter and "electronic" shutter if you have the 645DF and newer back.  How it actually works I'm not sure, what you describe sounds like fair description of a possibility.  

I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.

Yes as I said, some kind of delay
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BobDavid

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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2009, 04:20:49 pm »

Quote from: michael
I don't understand the question about how the camera responds in "low light". Could you rephrase it? What exactly are you referring to?

There is definitely less shutter lag than the previous model, but I can't put a number to it.

Michael

"Low light" means a light level that is not high. For instance, in a studio situation where one or two softbox modeling lights are lighting the set for focusing and framing the picture. Of course, contrast levels are lower in this kind of setting. I could never get a Mamiya 645 AFD  with f/2.8 - f/4 lenses to lock into focus in that situation. That was my main reason for migrating over to the H platform. The H2F that I use in conjunction with the CF back and f/4 lenses locks into focus accurately without hunting in low light low contrast situations. I never had issues with the Mamiya AFD focusing in brightly lit scenes where there was a lot of contrast.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 04:24:29 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Thanks for the review Michael.

"Faster shutter responsiveness"

Does the above mean that there is less of that annoying shutter lag (delay) that the previous Mamiyas have? ;-)

I still have the AF body that I'm trading in for the DF and actually spent some time comparing them when I got home from PODAS. When pressing the shutter the new DF seems to be more a little more responsive than the AF.  Some of this is the actual mechanics of the shutter release button ... just smoother and less "throw".  I think there is a little more to it than that, and of course it depends on if you've prefocused, etc.  I been using a Hasselblad H1 for some time, and I don't notice the phase camera being much different than it.

There is still an annoying lag when using mirror up and a cable release. During PODAS, I talked with Claus Molgaard (PhaseOne CTO and VP of R&D)  about this, and after some discussion and working with a camera, it appears the delay is caused by the diaphragm stopping down - you can actually hear a noise from the lens.  This  occurs simultaneously to the mirror moving up when not using mirror lockup so it isn't noticeable then, but in mirror up mode it waits until you actually press the shutter release.  I got the impression from him this is an addressable issue by simply stopping down the diaphragm when locking the mirror up ... hopefully remedied in a firmware update.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2009, 04:48:46 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I think this is probably similar to how Canon dSLR's can sync up to 1/8000th with certain strobes, as we know the physical focal plane curtains can't work that fast.

Although I don't know for sure, I can make an intelligent guess about how Canon's system works. The only way to achieve it with a focal plane shutter is to start the flash before the first curtain moves, and stop it after the second curtain closes. You are effectively creating a continuous light with the flash for the whole duration of the exposure.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2009, 06:17:39 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Although I don't know for sure, I can make an intelligent guess about how Canon's system works. The only way to achieve it with a focal plane shutter is to start the flash before the first curtain moves, and stop it after the second curtain closes. You are effectively creating a continuous light with the flash for the whole duration of the exposure.

Correct. The technologies employed by Canon and Phase to accomplish high sync speed are NOT the same. One is using a stroboscopic effect to create effectively continuous light during the entirety of the focal plane travel and the other is dealing with the timing of the sensor.

The upside of the Canon method is you can get down to the ludicrous 1/8000th speed. The downside of the Canon method is the ammount of flash power you're able to produce is extremely limited at 1/8000th and you can only use a select number of compatible flashes.

The upside of the Phase method is you can use FULL power of the strobe and you can use a variety of strobes. The downside of the Phase method is you're limited to "only" 1/1600 (though that's really way more than you need 99.9% of the time) and you must use a leaf shutter lens and a digital back engineered.

Of note of course is the fact that Phase's Schneider Leaf Shutter Lenses will sync at 1/800 with any digital back. Only the 1/1600 sync requires a 65+/40+.

Doug

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