Best price for Phase One P25+ in current market?

[Gu Shiin]

I've recently been offered a new P25+ with 1 year classic warranty + accessories (V fit), a Mamiya RZ adapter plate for Pro II body, advanced Capture U training course for a grand total of GBP £8000 plus vat (15%).

Is that a good deal given the current market shift towards P45+ and P65+ backs?

Just for curiosity sake, which back produce better image quality (or 3D feel), Phase or Leaf?

Many thanks!

[DanielStone]

I've recently been offered a new P25+ with 1 year classic warranty + accessories (V fit), a Mamiya RZ adapter plate for Pro II body, advanced Capture U training course for a grand total of GBP £8000 plus vat (15%).

Is that a good deal given the current market shift towards P45+ and P65+ backs?

Just for curiosity sake, which back produce better image quality (or 3D feel), Phase or Leaf?

Many thanks!

That 'feel' is what I've been trying to get through digital images for a while. I'm a film-only guy right now, since that is what I can afford (since I'm a student). But after looking, and LOTS of reading, and some more looking, I like what I've seen off of the Dalsa(Leaf/Sinar) sensors more, straight out of the camera.

I want something to look as close to film as possible. Kodak Portra 160vc/400vc has a certain 'look'.

The other variable that comes into play is "how much?" post-production to get the shot/file where you want it in terms of contrast, overall tone, and curves adjustment.

The 3d affect has its own recent thread here

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=39427

Phase now owns Leaf, and both have a Kodak sensor in their top backs, the P65+ and Aptus II 10. So this might change things a bit. The smaller sensors in the Leaf I believe are still the ones from Dalsa.

Leaf has generally been regarded as more "film-like". This is in numerous places you can reference from. The P1 files (to me) look like digital. Maybe I'm just so new to this that I don't know. I've seen great stuff from both straight out though.

The thing that bothers me mostly about the 'look' of digital photography has got to be that the engineers at Kodak and Fuji took YEARS to develop the films we have today/recently... Millions of man hours went into developing that 'look' and 'feel' that we got STRAIGHT OUT of the film. With digital, WE became the darkroom, more work for us, and when you switch cameras/backs, you switch films essentially. Hence, a Canon almost always looks different than a Nikon, even when shot in the same lighting, same focal length lens, same time, etc... All the variables are the same except the camera and the lens.

Now don't get thinking that I'm ALL ANALOG, NO DIGITAL, cause I'm not. I just start with film, and scan it, editing in PS. I love the fine control that PS gives. Repeatability as well..


sorry though, I don't know if 8K is a good price or not. The RZ adapter plates come up on ebay now and again, I've seen a few for the RZ-->H1 adapter sell for $300-6/700 range. I've bid on a few, losing all unfortunately. I've got a H2 and an RZ kit, that's why.

best of luck though!

There are plenty of very knowledgeable people on this site, along with many daily users of P1 backs as well as Leaf/Sinar and Hassy.

-Dan

[ced]

Just to point out that the Phase/Leaf big chips are of Dalsa origin.

[Lawrie_Hope]

I've recently been offered a new P25+ with 1 year classic warranty + accessories (V fit), a Mamiya RZ adapter plate for Pro II body, advanced Capture U training course for a grand total of GBP £8000 plus vat (15%).

Is that a good deal given the current market shift towards P45+ and P65+ backs?

Just for curiosity sake, which back produce better image quality (or 3D feel), Phase or Leaf?

Many thanks!

Hi There,

The Leaf equivalent is the Aptus II 5 sensor size 48mm x 36mm ISO 25-400 Firewire 800, faster than the P25, far better GUI, largest touchscreen, best sensor in class (and no microlenses)
and the benefit of being able to use both Capture One V5 and Leaf Capture with the raw files (mos) as well as ALL 3rd party software.

Uk price NEW inc RZ interface plate and 1 days training £7258.00 plus Vat.

[Gu Shiin]

Hi There,

The Leaf equivalent is the Aptus II 5 sensor size 48mm x 36mm ISO 25-400 Firewire 800, faster than the P25, far better GUI, largest touchscreen, best sensor in class (and no microlenses)
and the benefit of being able to use both Capture One V5 and Leaf Capture with the raw files (mos) as well as ALL 3rd party software.

Uk price NEW inc RZ interface plate and 1 days training £7258.00 plus Vat.

Hi Darius,

Thanks for the info.

Leaf and Phase One back are the ones I'm considering at the moment. I have feedback from photographers using both backs with RZ and they seem to be happy with both backs, though the market seems to be leaning towards Phase One.

I have met Phase One rep in person for a demo, and I do like the build and features on the back, though the screen is a slight let down, when tethered shooting isn't an option.

This is a significant investment for me (after lighting packs), so the decision is not to be taken lightly. Given the price, it is advertised USD $7995 on leaf website, which makes perfect economic sense to buy from across the pond, wouldn't it?

Would I be able to shoot tethered into Capture One Pro 5 using Leaf back?

Cheers

[Wayne Fox]

Just to point out that the Phase/Leaf big chips are of Dalsa origin.

If by "big chips" you are referring to the full size (40.4x53.9mm) chips in the 60mp backs, they are Dalsa manufactured. The design is a PhaseOne/Dalsa partnership.

If you are referring to "big chips" you are talking about MF sensors in general, most (perhaps all) Phase back previous to the P65 used Kodak sensors.  I know my original p25 and my p45 both used a kodak sensor.

[ced]

Not worth buying across the pond as when you might need support you will only run into troubles.
Worth speaking with your local closest representative.

[yaya]

Hi Darius,

Thanks for the info.

Leaf and Phase One back are the ones I'm considering at the moment. I have feedback from photographers using both backs with RZ and they seem to be happy with both backs, though the market seems to be leaning towards Phase One.

I have met Phase One rep in person for a demo, and I do like the build and features on the back, though the screen is a slight let down, when tethered shooting isn't an option.

This is a significant investment for me (after lighting packs), so the decision is not to be taken lightly. Given the price, it is advertised USD $7995 on leaf website, which makes perfect economic sense to buy from across the pond, wouldn't it?

Would I be able to shoot tethered into Capture One Pro 5 using Leaf back?

Cheers

Two main areas to look at when choosing between the two offers:

1. Speed: If you shoot people and need fast capture rate then the Aptus-II 5 is twice as fast as the P25+, with no buffering or slow downs whether you shoot tethered or into a CF card.

2. RZ compatibility: The Aptus-II 5 will only require 1 sync cable and comes with an adapter that lets you rotate it just like a film back.

Full tethered support in Capture One 5.X is coming although you can use the Hot Folder Facility already now which works very well.

As ced is suggesting, I would also recommend buying locally and specifically in UK (here is where the plug comes in) you have the guys at Peartree who are amongst the best and most experienced in this business and will often jump through hoops to make sure your kit works as it should.

My 2CW

Yair

[narikin]

I've recently been offered a new P25+ with 1 year classic warranty + accessories (V fit), a Mamiya RZ adapter plate for Pro II body, advanced Capture U training course for a grand total of GBP £8000 plus vat (15%).

Is that a good deal given the current market shift towards P45+ and P65+ backs?

Just for curiosity sake, which back produce better image quality (or 3D feel), Phase or Leaf?

seems like a lot to me. If you scour eBay, especially the US site, and you'll find people struggling to sell P45's for $11,000.
There's a P25+ on there now for $4800 with no bids, thats under half your price... and a P45+ just sold for $13k, which is about your same price for a much better, later gen sensor. these backs are near indestructible - check the sensor glass is clean and scratch free (about $1200 to replace) and that it hasn't been underwater. thats about it.

I got an email today offering a P45+ to P65+ upgrade path for $14,500 (asking, probably you can negotiate better still) so the later backs are worth more $ for sure.
also expect you have a bunch of PM's from dealers offering you better deals!!
I'd pass on that price.

[Gu Shiin]

Two main areas to look at when choosing between the two offers:

1. Speed: If you shoot people and need fast capture rate then the Aptus-II 5 is twice as fast as the P25+, with no buffering or slow downs whether you shoot tethered or into a CF card.

2. RZ compatibility: The Aptus-II 5 will only require 1 sync cable and comes with an adapter that lets you rotate it just like a film back.

Full tethered support in Capture One 5.X is coming although you can use the Hot Folder Facility already now which works very well.

As ced is suggesting, I would also recommend buying locally and specifically in UK (here is where the plug comes in) you have the guys at Peartree who are amongst the best and most experienced in this business and will often jump through hoops to make sure your kit works as it should.

My 2CW

Yair

Hi Yair,

Many thanks for your info. The speed isn't crucial in my work, however, it would certainly come in handy if I ever branch into fashion work, or where continuous capture is required.

As for the RZ rotating back, it is certainly a bonus for Leaf back, which is almost a must have feature for me.

If tethered shooting isn't a problem with Capture One, the choice seems fairly clear now

[Gu Shiin]

seems like a lot to me. If you scour eBay, especially the US site, and you'll find people struggling to sell P45's for $11,000.
There's a P25+ on there now for $4800 with no bids, thats under half your price... and a P45+ just sold for $13k, which is about your same price for a much better, later gen sensor. these backs are near indestructible - check the sensor glass is clean and scratch free (about $1200 to replace) and that it hasn't been underwater. thats about it.

I got an email today offering a P45+ to P65+ upgrade path for $14,500 (asking, probably you can negotiate better still) so the later backs are worth more $ for sure.
also expect you have a bunch of PM's from dealers offering you better deals!!
I'd pass on that price.

Thank you for the info, the price is obviously an important factor, and I felt the same as you when I first received the offer. Since Dalsa now manufactures both Phase and Leaf back, I guess the image quality variance would be marginal. And I must admit, having learned the differences from everyone's reply, I'm leaning towards Leaf back.

Just a matter of the price and support that comes with it now

[Lawrie_Hope]

Thank you for the info, the price is obviously an important factor, and I felt the same as you when I first received the offer. Since Dalsa now manufactures both Phase and Leaf back, I guess the image quality variance would be marginal. And I must admit, having learned the differences from everyone's reply, I'm leaning towards Leaf back.

Just a matter of the price and support that comes with it now

Hi there,

Before you do anything and make a decision, we have  a demo Aptus II 5 and the relevent adaptor, you would be more than welcome to try both, either here at our demo suite, or in your studio.

kindest

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi Yair,

Many thanks for your info. The speed isn't crucial in my work, however, it would certainly come in handy if I ever branch into fashion work, or where continuous capture is required.

As for the RZ rotating back, it is certainly a bonus for Leaf back, which is almost a must have feature for me.

If tethered shooting isn't a problem with Capture One, the choice seems fairly clear now

Also, you might consider if you own an RZ that is not ProIID, that you'll have a variety of camera platforms to choose from (Hassy V, H, Mamiya/Phase) where with the P25+ you will have to choose the V platform unless you buy a ProIID which opens up using a Phase One/Mamiya mount. This could have a role in whether you intend to use a second platform in the future, perhaps a 645 auto focus platform to supplement your RZ.

I suspect many Leaf users will migrate to Capture One, especially if they shoot a lot un-tethered. I'll be interested to see how much capability the tethered process will allow for Leaf tethered shooting into Capture One. But looking at ISO 400 images today from an Aptus II 5 in both Leaf Capture 11.2.9 and Capture One 5.0, the image appears to have more fine detail in Capture One and a big advantage is being able to see the image at sub-100% resolutions with the noise reduction still displayed, as opposed to Leaf Capture, which will only display the noise reduction at 100%.


Steve Hendrix

[Gu Shiin]

Hi there,

Before you do anything and make a decision, we have  a demo Aptus II 5 and the relevent adaptor, you would be more than welcome to try both, either here at our demo suite, or in your studio.

kindest

For sure

Given the amount of money and long term commitment that comes with it, I wouldn't pull a plug until I've felt, shot, tested and happy with the images.

Just a matter of finding time between shoots, edit and juggling bookings in the run up to Christmas ... oh the joy of miserable festive!

When the dust settles down, I'll be in touch.

[narikin]

And I must admit, having learned the differences from everyone's reply, I'm leaning towards Leaf back.

confused by this line - what are you meaning?

Phase are excellent and the market leaders beyond any doubt - you think they got that through delivering inferior products?
support is useful but there's limits tp what you should pay for it. if the choice is a $13000 back with support and an identical one for $6000 with no support, I'd take the latter.
in fact I'd still do that at $2000 difference.

these backs are bullet proof. its hard to overstate that.

[Gu Shiin]

confused by this line - what are you meaning?

Phase are excellent and the market leaders beyond any doubt - you think they got that through delivering inferior products?
support is useful but there's limits tp what you should pay for it. if the choice is a $13000 back with support and an identical one for $6000 with no support, I'd take the latter.
in fact I'd still do that at $2000 difference.

these backs are bullet proof. its hard to overstate that.

I'm leaning towards Leaf back because: 1. new Aptus II and Phase backs are both manufactured by Dalsa, technical difference would be marginal in my opinion; 2. Leaf back only needs one cable with RZ while Phase back needs more; 3. Leaf is much faster than Phase in shooting speed; 4. Leaf pricing is much more affordable to me than getting a Phase one back right now; 5. Leaf files would be tethered into Capture One Pro 5 soon if not already.

I have never once mentioned or even hinted that Phase One products are in any way inferior, I'd jumped on a P45+ or P65+ is I could afford it. I've played with P65+ and had a long discussion with Phase rep in private, I fully understand how robust the build is and how superb the results are.

But, I need to get the most for my few pennies, hence my preference of Leaf over Phase one product