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Author Topic: the 3D effect in MF digital  (Read 17821 times)

bcooter

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2009, 03:04:11 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Reichmann must have a plant here in the audience. Every thirty days or so, the alarm goes off, and this plant has to stand up and (re)ask this same question again. Set your watch, I guarantee you in thirty days it'll happen again.
From real life.

Yesterday stopped at Samy's on Fairfax to pick up two repaired strobe heads.  I wish I'd of carried on of those flip video things and taped it, from parking lot to back because it's interesting.

At first there is the rental counter.  45 art center and Brook's grads, all grabbing up Canons, Nikons and a few 7b's to do their big test on the weekend, cause weekend rental is counted as one day.

They all have that wide eyed look, almost happy almost scared like a kid before he goes onto the roller coaster.  He wants to do it more than he wants to breath, but you can just feel that thought of "damn I hope I don't puke and embarress myself."  There is a line of them dragging the rentals out and trying to stuff them in their Audi's and BMW 3 series.  Kind of funny to see kids with $45,000 cars, but it is LA and they did go to Art Center.

Then up to the camera department and on the left is the Leica guy, I kid you not the guy with the blue sweater on his shoulders in the you tube videos.  He's all by himself, not a customer within 50 feet,  standing in front of these little red boxes with a camera on top of each one.  An M-8, M-9 and some little bitty camera that looks cell phone size.  These boxes are kind of Cartier looking, except Samy's doesn't look like Cartier so it's kind of strange to see someone selling jewelry in a camera store.

I swear to the heavens he's still got a sweater on his shoulder, but this time it's bright orange, tasteful european orange, not wallmart ugly orange.   Not an S-2 to be seen.  Behind him is all this Leica stuff they use to make that Samy's must have pulled from stock.  A brand new film R-9 with that dark titanium metal look and God that camera is beautiful.  It takes everything I got not to buy that camera until I think oh, yea, that's a film camera and uh yea, it's manual focus and uh yea, it probably would take 6 weeks to get it fixed and when's the next time I'm gonna shoot 35mm film?

I ask him about the S-2 and he mentions some demo day in December, but I just kid of think huh, demo day, uh ok,

Then the Canon and Nikon counters are pretty full, mostly amateurs buying lenses and flash to go on their d700's and 5d's.

Now I round the corner to the "Pro" section where the medium format cameras are and there are 5 "customers" holding cameras, mostly Hasselblads.  All have  that big half guilty smile, like the wife is out of town and I'm gonna spend some serious  money.  If this was three years earlier they'd all be at the Porsche, Harley, or  Ferrari dealership, but nobody that has to look respectable is gonna buy a $180,000 sports car today, not in LA, not with all the talk about global melting and the economy, not when every neighbor drives a Prius.  So instead of a Carerra they're gonna buy a camera.

None are holding a Leaf, or a Phase, in fact the phase cameras are on the bottom of the case one of them on it's side.  They all are holding those blads and I could be wrong but they don't look like photographers to me at least not professional photographers.

Guys that do what I do kind of look road weary, kind of beat up and these guys are a little pudgy, but have those clean hands and pink smooth cheeks like Dentists or Heart Surgeons.  They don't look like Gordon Gecko types either (those guys are still buying the Ferraris), just nice happy rich guys that live in Brentwood.

I could take those guys into a studio and shoot a Canon next to the blad or the Phase and prove to them the difference is about 4%, or show them how to tether, rename, batch process, but they don't care cause they ain't gonna tether, rename, or batch process.  They don't want a Canon cause none of their friends knows that a $7,000 Canon is not a $900 Canon, they want a Hasselblad.

Those guys believe in the 3d look.  

Now I could take them into a studio or location with a real crew, a real model, (probably in Lingerie and not one of those camera company models) and with a briese light hand them that blad and say see, see, the 3d look, see how this "big" camera renders the image, or better yet "draws" the image and they'd go "yea, yea, man that's it".

These are believers and the wife is outta town.

BC
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 03:10:51 pm by bcooter »
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gwhitf

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2009, 03:35:43 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
They don't want a Canon cause none of their friends knows that a $7,000 Canon is not a $900 Canon, they want a Hasselblad.

That's excellent. For once, I'm on the right side of the equation. 'Cause I got a P45+ for sale, along with an entire H2 system. And two 1ds3's to boot. I'm cleaning them up right now, getting them back in the box, and I'm wearing my sweater tied around my neck and my shiny Loafers, just for Good Luck.
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bcooter

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2009, 03:53:57 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
That's excellent. For once, I'm on the right side of the equation. 'Cause I got a P45+ for sale, along with an entire H2 system. And two 1ds3's to boot. I'm cleaning them up right now, getting them back in the box, and I'm wearing my sweater tied around my neck and my shiny Loafers, just for Good Luck.

Samy is one smart cat.

He's got the "pro" department around the corner from the Nikons and Canons.  This is important, cause yesterday, all those guys are taking snaps with the H3dII dash whatever and pushing all those little buttons on the back, staring into that weird oled or lcd or whatever screen it has on the back.

They're just smiling ear to ear, cause the only thing they could compare it to was that tiny little Phase lcd.   They could compare it to the Sinar/HY6 lcd, but those batteries haven't been charged in 14 months, so on that side of the store, that Blad sure looks good.

Now if their was a 5d2 sitting there and they did the same thing, they'd go "oh shit, why is the screen on the Hasselblad broke?", but since the 5d2 is around the corner, stuffed in a box, they don't see the comparison.

Samy is smart.

So when you sell that Hasselblad/Phase, make sure you don't sell it to the same guy that buys your Canons.

BC
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tho_mas

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2009, 05:23:42 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Now I could take them into a studio or location with a real crew, a real model, (probably in Lingerie and not one of those camera company models) and with a briese light hand them that blad and say see, see, the 3d look, see how this "big" camera renders the image, or better yet "draws" the image and they'd go "yea, yea, man that's it".
These are believers and the wife is outta town.
I got what you're saying and I know (at least assume) you wouldn't stretch the story to excess.
But - maybe just once in a while - don't forget that there are a lot of photographers who don't need to batch process or rename or whatever.
Because they shoot 2-3 images in a day… or 1 in 3 days… or 1 in 2 months (plus, maybe, the LCC shots, but I don't count them).
You'll find some of them here on the board and you'll find them in galleries.
It would be strange not to call them "professionals" just because they produce low volumes and appreciate to focus manually.
These guys care about 4%. Even 2%. But in their respective genres it's more than just 4%... because they don't shoot fashion/beauty (which gets retouching anyway... so for this genre you can actually use any current medicore DSLR that is fast enough and can be tethered to C1).
Well, I'm sure I don't tell you any news. But, sorry, the generalized story of the dentists is getting old… at least little bit ;-)

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gss

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2009, 05:43:51 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Samy is one smart cat.

He's got the "pro" department around the corner from the Nikons and Canons.  This is important, cause yesterday, all those guys are taking snaps with the H3dII dash whatever and pushing all those little buttons on the back, staring into that weird oled or lcd or whatever screen it has on the back.

Hmm, the pro dept in the Fairfax store is on the fourth floor, except on Sundays, where they have a lone "pro" guy on the third floor with the Nikons and Canons.  Is Samy only smart on Sunday?
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feppe

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2009, 05:49:21 pm »

I've been curious about this MFDB mystique myself, and asked a related question on what is tonality, which is another phrase being thrown around in pretty much every discussion about the superiority of the medium.

But as I conceded in my post linked above (IIRC), I see something "different" in my medium format film shots. Whether it's placebo effect - since I know which ones are taken with MF -, or whether it's quantifiable is a whole another matter. I'm pretty sure it's pure placebo, but would be glad to be proven wrong.

Carsten W

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2009, 06:01:04 pm »

I don't know what causes the 3D look either. There is a big thread on FM and before that, there was another. The best we could come up with is that it has something to do with micro-contrast, and something to do with the way that sharpness rolls off as you run out of depth of field. The Leicas are very abrupt in the rolloff, and they have more subject isolation. The Zeiss lenses have a more gradual rolloff, and more details left in the boke, and they seem to have the 3D look more often.

MF has more, I don't know why. I don't think it necessarily has much to do with optics, although there is that. I think that it just has to do with the size of the capture area, i.e. the sensor or the film. 8x10 has even more. One glance at the Acute Matte screen on my Hasselblad with the 110/2 on and I see it, a lot of the time. The 120/4 Macro Contax 645 also shows it, and even the 80/2. Again, I see it, I like it, but I don't know where it comes from.
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marc gerritsen

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2009, 06:03:05 pm »

took a photo of a woman
it was 3d for real
i walked into the photo and kissed her, she kissed back
then i woke up
3d my ass!

btw the shot was taken with a hassy
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Carsten W

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2009, 06:05:14 pm »

Quote from: marc gerritsen
took a photo of a woman
it was 3d for real
i walked into the photo and kissed her, she kissed back
then i woke up
3d my ass!

btw the shot was taken with a hassy

I am curious how you got the photo of your ass with your Hassie, but please don't show the photo.

Personally, I am referring to my ancient 2000FC/M, btw. I own no modern Hassie, and have a lot more invested in Leica M than in MF, so I have no horse in this race, I just see it.
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rainer_v

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 06:10:10 pm »



arent these 3d arguings exactly the same attributes people found in film days in the leica m shots ?
there have been written books about it b e.putt. koma, form of the blades, sort of glass , everythink.
m guys often claimed that its not visible in the r shots and ofcorse not in canon or nikon glass ...

i have shot both systems at that time ( r+m ) aside my 4x5" linhof and  this discussions have been as boring for me in that times than they are in this days.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 06:11:24 pm by rainer_v »
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CBarrett

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2009, 07:58:49 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
arent these 3d arguings exactly the same attributes people found in film days in the leica m shots ?
there have been written books about it b e.putt. koma, form of the blades, sort of glass , everythink.
m guys often claimed that its not visible in the r shots and ofcorse not in canon or nikon glass ...

i have shot both systems at that time ( r+m ) aside my 4x5" linhof and  this discussions have been as boring for me in that times than they are in this days.


Hmm.... I'm not sure I can quantify the effect...but....

My early personal work was mostly shot around decaying Chicago industrial sites, steel mills more often than not.  It was all shot on 4x5 Tri X.  I would make contact prints on Agfa Portriga, do selective bleaching and then drop them in a strong selenium bath until the hilights and midtones had gone magenta, but pull them while the shadows were still that sort of olive colored base that was inherent to Portriga (beautiful paper).  Those prints were absolutely 3 dimensional.  Actually most of my contact prints felt that way to me.  I think it does have a lot to do with tonality.  What I mean when I say good tonality is not just that the image utilizes the full range of tones between pure black and pure white, but also that there are very smooth transitions between the varying tones, AND good contrast, the effect of which is achieved through the clarity in details (via good glass).  The black and white conversions I've done from my P65+ files capture this feeling for me, even more so than the film I was shooting previously on the same project.  Btw, if you wanna try to figure out which is which, go here.  The digitals were with the Phase 645, 45mm D and P65+ and the film shots were on a 'Blad 500c, 50mm Distagon on Efke 25 processed in Pyro and drum scanned.

Did I have a point?  Did I make it?

-C
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DanielStone

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2009, 08:34:07 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Samy is one smart cat.

He's got the "pro" department around the corner from the Nikons and Canons.  This is important, cause yesterday, all those guys are taking snaps with the H3dII dash whatever and pushing all those little buttons on the back, staring into that weird oled or lcd or whatever screen it has on the back.

Samy is smart.

So when you sell that Hasselblad/Phase, make sure you don't sell it to the same guy that buys your Canons.

BC

You bet Samy is smart, look at the empire he's built here in LA . I know cause up until the beginning of this year(January) I worked for him, in the Pasadena store behind the film counter.

He's a very generous guy too, with a really big heart. And a fucking good businessman!!!

I'm in preparation to transfer to Art Center in the next year, getting some gen. ed out of the way before applying. Leaving more time to shoot while there.

but yes, Samy is super smart

-Dan
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cyberean

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2009, 09:54:14 pm »

Quote from: DanielStone
You bet Samy is smart, look at the empire he's built here in LA . I know cause up until the beginning of this year(January) I worked for him, in the Pasadena store behind the film counter.

He's a very generous guy too, with a really big heart. And a fucking good businessman!!!

I'm in preparation to transfer to Art Center in the next year, getting some gen. ed out of the way before applying. Leaving more time to shoot while there.

but yes, Samy is super smart

-Dan
every coin has a flip side ... that's not
always as shiny as the other side  
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Carsten W

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2009, 06:03:02 am »

Quote from: cyberean
every coin has a flip side ... that's not
always as shiny as the other side  

Sure, not always, but sometimes the other side is just as shiny. Was there a point you were trying to make?
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zView

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2009, 06:54:39 am »

Quote from: narikin
been reading people here talking about the '3D effect' of MF digital files.

now I'm not one for hocus pocus or mystical unmeasurable benefits of pricey MF backs over 35mm digital, or Leica images over anything else, or eastern 'Bokeh' mysticism... BUT... I have to admit I DO see it when I look at good MF files!

any ideas what is causing this - the lack of AA filter? the expanded Dynamic Range? great C1 raw processing of their own backs files?
or is it simply MF images taken at the right aperture, in the right light, mimic human vision.

There is a scientific reason for that. If you have bigger sensor you have bigger FOV (Field of View) and more perspective. There is a tradeoff between pixel size to focal length and smaller pixel size is increasing the equivalent focal length
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zView

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2009, 06:55:13 am »

Quote from: narikin
been reading people here talking about the '3D effect' of MF digital files.

now I'm not one for hocus pocus or mystical unmeasurable benefits of pricey MF backs over 35mm digital, or Leica images over anything else, or eastern 'Bokeh' mysticism... BUT... I have to admit I DO see it when I look at good MF files!

any ideas what is causing this - the lack of AA filter? the expanded Dynamic Range? great C1 raw processing of their own backs files?
or is it simply MF images taken at the right aperture, in the right light, mimic human vision.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 06:57:41 am by zView »
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bigalbest

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2009, 10:10:50 am »

For all the arguing that goes on about this subject, the funny thing is that you're both right, hahaha! MFD has clear advantages over 35mm, and 35mm has clear advantages over MFD. If you can't see the difference I personally could care less (I'd really like to see more actual pictures), but the differences are certainly there. In most cases when using strobes or when shooting anything that doesn't move when the light is good, MFD is better. Customers can't tell the difference (yet), but I don't care because I get a warm feeling shooting with it knowing the files meet MY expectations. Usually when shooting events the lights go dim and there is no substitute for high ISO with 35mm, and that's when I make the switch. For me the answer is yes, there is a 3D effect with MFD, but at the same time for any professional who needs to be versatile, the real solution is to have both. I do.

Alex
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stevesanacore

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2009, 10:17:20 am »


I would guess it has something to do with mid tones and detail, that under the right circumstances cause an image to look more 'real' or have a depth that other images don't seem to have. I know when I use my Leica R lenses on my Canon's there is definitely more of a 3D feel.

Many call it 'microcontrast' that Leica, as well as Zeiss has in a similar but definitely different fashion. The optics on the MF cameras combined with the larger sensors also exhibit that mid-tone detail that seems to have the same properties. I think it is described as contrast vs. resolution in inferior optical design. In other words, when designing cheap optics, (read: canon, nikon etc.), manufactures have to choose contrast to make up for poor rendering of detail. Leica, and Zeiss etc. have a different customer base and can build better optics without and or less of this compromise. I would imagine that the MF cameras all have optics that measure up to this higher standard.  Please forgive me if I have the terms contrast, sharpness, detail, resolution mixed up, but I think you get my meaning.

So no I don't think it's in the mind of the MF customers, but I don't think you always need a MF camera to achieve it. But it's probably easier with one. After shooting with the S2 the other day, MF may have finally reached the level of convenience that Canon and Nikon have had a monopoly on for a decade now.

IMO.
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Doug Peterson

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2009, 10:47:15 am »

Quote from: stevesanacore
...
In other words, when designing cheap optics, (read: canon, nikon etc.), manufactures have to choose contrast to make up for poor rendering of detail. Leica, and Zeiss etc. have a different customer base and can build better optics without and or less of this compromise. I would imagine that the MF cameras all have optics that measure up to this higher standard.

To be fair Nikon and Canon make some great glass. The Canon 50mm f/1.2 has a great look. However you're right in that Canon and Nikon more often are making lenses intended for a market where attention to minute aesthetics like the shape of out of focus highlights wouldn't increase sales enough to justify the cost of development, refinement, and production costs of those attributes.

No company has the corner on the market of intelligent R+D or designers. However, targeting different markets does naturally influence your priorities.

Doug Peterson
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JeffKohn

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the 3D effect in MF digital
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2009, 11:24:21 am »

Quote from: zView
There is a scientific reason for that. If you have bigger sensor you have bigger FOV (Field of View) and more perspective. There is a tradeoff between pixel size to focal length and smaller pixel size is increasing the equivalent focal length
http://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~vgg/hzbook/all...gif/fig5.7a.gif
This is nonsense. Perspective is determined by camera location. Focal length and format size have absolutely nothing to do with perspective. FOV is determined by a combination of focal length and format size, but there is no difference between a 100-degree FOV on 35mm-format versus 100-degree FOV on MF.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 11:27:47 am by JeffKohn »
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