Buying a printing system for a University Photosociety

[Brammers]

Hi all,

At Edinburgh Uni photo society we're feeling a bit flush and have about 1500GBP to spend on toys this year.  One thing that seems to be attracting interest in converting one of our 3 darkrooms into a digital lightroom with a film scanner, computer with some software and a high quality printer.

It is my intention to buy a system that replaces commercial labs for anything that approaches quality printing.  I don't intend to use this for holiday snaps, but rather for work to be put in portfolios, to be viewed in exhibitions or to be hung on walls.  It will be accesible by around 400 members and will hopefully be used fairly regularly (almost daily) throughout term time, but there will be long periods of idling during holidays (up to 10 weeks).  

I intend to offer a fairly limited selection of paper - say one glossy, one lustre and one fibre based matt paper.  I would like to be able to print up to A3 and really want to be able to use roll paper to print panoramic shots.  In a little fit of patiotism (unless they're owned by someone else nowdays!), I'll probably select from the Ilford range - we use their film stuff already.  I'm not looking for 100% perfection, but I would like the prints to be very good.  There will also be a lot of B&W printing, and definately a fair bit of switching from matt to glossy papers based on everyone's tastes.  Should I discount the Epson range - I've heard you have to swap black cartridges each time and it wastes a lot of ink.

It's been suggested that I pay for ink by adding the fees to paper costs.  Paper would be purchased from the society, but as there will be free access to the room I really want to implement a print credit system, otherwise there's nothing to stop someone from coming into the room and putting in his own paper.  I've found some networkable print credit systems, but they start at 250GBP...  Does anyone have any reccomendations here?

We already have the film scanner, but the rest needs to be sourced.  Based on the above information, I would love reccomendations for:

The printer - again, A3, medium usasge, periods of inactivity, would like roll printing for panoramic formats.
Lighting the room
Calibration - I don't really understand this for prints.  As I'm only going to offer say 3 papers, would it be ok to merely calibrate the screen and use downloaded paper profiles, or do I need to calibrate the entire rig?  
A way to source a decent monitor.  There's plenty of space, so would it be a good idea to put in an old CRT to save money?
Anything else!

Looking forwards to what you guys have to offer.

Cheers,

Adam

[Dick Roadnight]

Hi all,

At Edinburgh Uni photo society we're feeling a bit flush and have about 1500GBP to spend on toys this year.  One thing that seems to be attracting interest in converting one of our 3 darkrooms into a digital lightroom with a film scanner, computer with some software and a high quality printer.

Looking forwards to what you guys have to offer.

Cheers,

Adam

How big is the room?

£15,000 to £20,000 would be a good budget for a fast computer or two, local area network, decent (double) monitors, pro lighting, calibration and a couple of pro printers (including A2).

If your budget is £1,500, you will have to use mostly what anyone will give you.

Epson printers do not like not been used for weeks on end.

[Thomas Krüger]

What about the HP Z3200 from http://www.laserjet.co.uk/q6718a-p-23286.html
Or the old version, the HP Z3100: http://www.laserjet.co.uk/q5669a-p-7784.html

[Alan Goldhammer]

this will be a challenge given the budget you have outlined.  One way to help solve the problem is standardize on one paper, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.  Glossy paper that gives outstanding results on both color and B&W.  Comes in rolls and many professionals (and amateurs such as myself) regularly use this paper.  I'm not sure what printing volume you are looking at but the Epson 2880 does take roll paper (though the ink cost will be high because of the small cartridges; but you could charge a user fee to cover that) otherwise you have to move up to the 4880 to have roll capability (the 3880 does not support this).   You won't have a cartridge swap issue with the Ilford paper mentioned above and I think the ink use for this paper is slightly lower than for a matte paper.

You can also save by using a PC rather than a Mac but do need a good monitor and calibration software for it otherwise users will not get full value.  You could also save by only using Lightroom rather than both Lightroom and PS but that would be a tough call to make depending on the user expectations.  Here is what approximate US pricing would be:

Generic PC with capabiliity to run Lightroom and PS ~ $500
NEC P221 monitor with SpectraView kit ~ $800
Epson R2880 printer ~ $700  (R4880 would add about $1000 on top of that if you go in that direction)
Adobe Lightroom ~ $300 (might be an academic discount???; PS would add $500 to this)

Don't have any clue about the credit system.  Anyway the amount above runs to $2300 US for the bare bones system and $3800 or so if you upgrade the printer and include PS.  Tough call.

[Brammers]

How big is the room?

£15,000 to £20,000 would be a good budget for a fast computer or two, local area network, decent (double) monitors, pro lighting, calibration and a couple of pro printers (including A2).

If your budget is £1,500, you will have to use mostly what anyone will give you.

Epson printers do not like not been used for weeks on end.

Hi Dick,

Yes, I agree that £20,000 would buy some lovely kit, however with only £1500+ to spend I think we're going to have to take things a little more slowly.

A fast computer or two can be stripped down to a reasonable computer.  I didn't include specs as I'm fairly happy with this area, but personally I spent about £400 on a 2.6ghz quad core with 8GB RAM last summer which I'd envision doing the job quite nicely.  As I intend for most people to rock up with their files ready for printing with only slight tweaking necessary we could probably save another £100 in this area.

Decent double monitors can be exchanged for a single monitor.  Loads of people are throwing away CRTs nowdays - I have a few local sources.  I would like information on calibrating these however, as I'm used to LCDs, and if there's anything I should be looking for.

Calibration of the printer - this something I have no knowledge about.  Again, it's a uni photoclub, not a pro lab, the results should be good but 100% accuracy is not expected or anticipated.  I believe that you can either create your own profiles using something like a Colourmunki profiler, or you can download calibration files from websites.  Would downloading the files be a satisfactory solution, bearing in mind I only intend to support around 3 papers?

A couple of pro printers should be reduced to a single nice printer.  I'd like to print up to A3, not A2 - should help trim the costs.  A quick ebay search shows Epson 3800s selling for anything from £400 if you're prepared to pick it up, to around £500 with delivery.  Inks and paper are not a part of this equation - they'll be paid for by the members, we have a system in place.  Having said that these printers don't like being left idle for a couple of weeks, do you have any reccomendations for something that fulfils my brief and comes in around the same price?

Pro lighting - nope, sounds expensive.  I believe that many people make use of a proofing area - a board with a couple of bulbs.  Once more, I don't know - I've not done it before, but it's something I've heard of being installed in peoples' homes.  Is it simply a matter of fancy lightbulbs, or is there more to it?  If we don't install this, does it make everything else worthless?  Please try to approach this question from the perspective of a photo club rather than from someone with a budget of £20,000 - I never even mentioned a selection of A2 printers or computers in my brief so I'm not sure these kind of suggestions are all that helpful!

So far I've got £500odd for the printer, £400 for a reasonable computer, £80 for print credit software and £80 for a student version of Lightroom 3.  That leaves around £500 for calibration, more software and other bits and bobs...  It seems possible to me.  

Thanks for your reply, looking forwards to more input!

[Brammers]

Alan,

Thanks for that reply - most helpful.

As you can see in my reply above, I've cut a few corners by going 2nd hand on my printer and by looking for a 'freebie' CRT monitor.  Can you offer any advice as to whether these are good decisions?

Adobe do indeed do academic versions of software, PS4 for GPB 120 and Lightroom 2.5 for GPB 80.  We'll obviously wait for LR3 before purchasing that, but I don't see the price changing dramtically.  This will also be an ongoing concern.  We take in money every year as membership fees are renewed.  Should we decide next year that we're really missing a copy of say photoshop CS4 it will be a simple matter to add it next year when the coffers are replenished.

I was certainly intending to standardise on paper, but I would like to offer a selection of finishes.  Would standardising on say 1 gloss, 1 lustre and 1 fibre paper screw things up too much?

We will certainly be using a PC rather than a mac - students are far more familiar with them as well!  

I notice that you haven't included any print calibration devices in your budget.  Does this mean that you consider downloading profiles for a select number of papers an acceptable option?

Thomas - those two printers seem to blow the budget by themselves.  I'm not really looking for a large format printer here - more a high quality desktop with the ability to print rolls for the odd panorama.  Do HP offer anything with these specifications?  I am wary of the Epsons because of the ink swapping issue, but they seem to be something of a standard.

Many thanksf for these replies!

[Dick Roadnight]

Hi Dick,

Yes, I agree that £20,000 would buy some lovely kit, however with only £1500+ to spend I think we're going to have to take things a little more slowly.


Pro lighting - nope, sounds expensive.  I believe that many people make use of a proofing area - a board with a couple of bulbs.  Once more, I don't know - I've not done it before, but it's something I've heard of being installed in peoples' homes.  Is it simply a matter of fancy lightbulbs, or is there more to it?  If we don't install this, does it make everything else worthless?  
Thanks for your reply, looking forwards to more input!

You will not get full benefit from calibrating you monitor if you do not have good lighting, which is "only " a few hundred, but you can get 5,000K bulbs which might be a cost-effective alternative (try BLT (bulbs, Lamps and tubes)).

Semi-pro printers you can get cheaply, and having two or more will save swopping paper rolls to change width.

Printers you can get cheaply might not be LAN or USB, but you can get usb to parallel printer adaptor cables.

If you approach manufacturers and tell them that you have hundreds of students studying to be professional photographers (who need to be familiar with state-of-the art pro kit) they may give you unbelievable discounts, the theory being that your students will get to know and like their kit, and specify it when they set up their own digital lightroom.

[Brammers]

You will not get full benefit from calibrating you monitor if you do not have good lighting, which is "only " a few hundred, but you can get 5,000K bulbs which might be a cost-effective alternative (try BLT (bulbs, Lamps and tubes)).

Semi-pro printers you can get cheaply, and having two or more will save swopping paper rolls to change width.

Printers you can get cheaply might not be LAN or USB, but you can get usb to parallel printer adaptor cables.

If you approach manufacturers and tell them that you have hundreds of students studying to be professional photographers (who need to be familiar with state-of-the art pro kit) they may give you unbelievable discounts, the theory being that your students will get to know and like their kit, and specify it when they set up their own digital lightroom.

Excellent - thanks for the reccomendations on the bulbs.  I take it that these are essential only when viewing the prints?  In that case would it be sufficient to set up a print viewing area, lit by these colours, or is part of the process of calibrating the monitor viewing it in calibrated light?  If you have any tutorials you can direct me to to save you some typing I'm a keen reader

I was intending to do the vast majority of printing from sheets - most of our members do A4 and A3 prints.  I'd like to have the option to do panoramics from a roll as they are becoming very popular.  Any really large printing I'm happy to farm out - I don't need to provide our members with the ability to do everything.  

The 3800 and its kin all seem to be USB - are you not reccomending this?  

We've already approached Sony for camera gear and they were most generous, so well done for jogging my memory - I'll certainly approach some printer makers.  The only problem is that I had a personal contact for Sony - I don't know anyone from HP, Canon or Epson.  I'll give it a crack regardless.

[Dick Roadnight]

Excellent - thanks for the reccomendations on the bulbs.  I take it that these are essential only when viewing the prints?  In that case would it be sufficient to set up a print viewing area, lit by these colours, or is part of the process of calibrating the monitor viewing it in calibrated light?  If you have any tutorials you can direct me to to save you some typing I'm a keen reader

You need the right light in the areas where the monitor is - just change the lighting (bulbs) of the whole room (and paint the ceiling and wall the right shade of white).

[Alan Goldhammer]

Alan,

Thanks for that reply - most helpful.

As you can see in my reply above, I've cut a few corners by going 2nd hand on my printer and by looking for a 'freebie' CRT monitor.  Can you offer any advice as to whether these are good decisions?

Adobe do indeed do academic versions of software, PS4 for GPB 120 and Lightroom 2.5 for GPB 80.  We'll obviously wait for LR3 before purchasing that, but I don't see the price changing dramtically.  This will also be an ongoing concern.  We take in money every year as membership fees are renewed.  Should we decide next year that we're really missing a copy of say photoshop CS4 it will be a simple matter to add it next year when the coffers are replenished.

I was certainly intending to standardise on paper, but I would like to offer a selection of finishes.  Would standardising on say 1 gloss, 1 lustre and 1 fibre paper screw things up too much?

We will certainly be using a PC rather than a mac - students are far more familiar with them as well!  

I notice that you haven't included any print calibration devices in your budget.  Does this mean that you consider downloading profiles for a select number of papers an acceptable option?

Thomas - those two printers seem to blow the budget by themselves.  I'm not really looking for a large format printer here - more a high quality desktop with the ability to print rolls for the odd panorama.  Do HP offer anything with these specifications?  I am wary of the Epsons because of the ink swapping issue, but they seem to be something of a standard.

Many thanksf for these replies!

The Epson 3800 will not accept roll paper so if that is a deal breaker you need to look elsewhere.  It does have the advantage of having both photo black and matte black cartridges mounted at the same time which is a big plus.  The user can simply switch between the two without having to swap them out.  Both the 2880 and 4880 (I beleive) require a cartridge swap which would be probably not a good idea with many users coming through and using the equipment.  I don't know about HP or Canon printers so I can't offer any assistance.  You can get a ColorMunki which will do both screen and paper profiling.  However, I you have only two or three papers, using the manufacturers profile or having one made is the way to go.  I think profiling the monitor is a must.

I've printed on all three paper types you mention but do not use luster papers any longer as I'm happy with the Ilford Gold Fibre.  I do a lot of matte printing and as noted above you may want to look at printers that do not require cartridge swapping.  If roll paper is not an issue, the 3800 is a great printer.

[Brammers]

The Epson 3800 will not accept roll paper so if that is a deal breaker you need to look elsewhere.  It does have the advantage of having both photo black and matte black cartridges mounted at the same time which is a big plus.  The user can simply switch between the two without having to swap them out.  Both the 2880 and 4880 (I beleive) require a cartridge swap which would be probably not a good idea with many users coming through and using the equipment.  I don't know about HP or Canon printers so I can't offer any assistance.  You can get a ColorMunki which will do both screen and paper profiling.  However, I you have only two or three papers, using the manufacturers profile or having one made is the way to go.  I think profiling the monitor is a must.

I've printed on all three paper types you mention but do not use luster papers any longer as I'm happy with the Ilford Gold Fibre.  I do a lot of matte printing and as noted above you may want to look at printers that do not require cartridge swapping.  If roll paper is not an issue, the 3800 is a great printer.

Thanks Alan - that's great, I wasn't aware that the Epson 3800 had both cartridges in at once.  Shame about lack of roll-printing, especially as the 2880 does it.  Does anyone have any reccomendations on a printer about the same format and quality as a 3800/3880 that will give me roll printing and avoid the problems the Epson has with being left standing over holidays?  

Thanks very much for the reccomendation for ignoring paper profiling - the manufacturers' profiles will be much cheaper.  I agree that monitor profiling is essential, I'll use my own experience here.

Dick, thanks for your lighting help.  As stated initially, the room to be converted is currently a darkroom, so replacing that lovely thick matt black paint with white could be interesting...  Better get started I guess.

Everything seems to be coming together now, so I guess all I need is a final poke towards the printer.  As I've said, I really like the looks of the 3800, but the clogging and the lack of roll support are small issues.  I'd love some alternatives to look into.

[BobShram]

Adam

I think you should be looking at a bigger machine, something like an Epson 7600/9600 or a 7800/9800. They are around and they can go cheap, it depends on the seller and if it is felt to be a good cause. Many businesses and individuals have upgraded to newer machinery and are looking to move the older/serviceable equipment on. Advertise that your need is for one of these or a like machine. In the US I would suggest Craigslist for one, but I am not sure of good free advertising in the UK. I'm also not sure if you can offset such items for tax right offs in the UK!

Bob

[Brammers]

Bob, thanks for this suggestion, but I'm loathe to go for a bigger machine simply because I think it would be overkill.  As well as space requirements, I anticipate the vast majority of printing being done on this machine being A3 and A4 using pre-cut sheets.  Not only are these easier to sell within the society and to manage print costs for, but they are also less intimidating.  No feeding sheets in, you simply place them in the drawer.  I've not mentioned the makeup of the society yet, but we go all the way from people with their first point and shoot right through to people who are turning professional and putting on their own exhibitions in the city.  Something that big is going to be very scary for a member who's borrowed one of our DSLRs for the first time and wants to print out her shots...

I will certainly be approaching the manufacturers for discounts, but I think that a floor standing printer is beyond our means.  

May I turn the discussion towards equivalents of the Epson 3800 series?  There seems to be a lot right with this printer, but I'm worried about the ink clogging issue.  From my searches I've been unable to determine the exact equivalent in the Canon and the HP lineups - could someone point them out to me?

Thanks once more for all help received so far.

Adam

I think you should be looking at a bigger machine, something like an Epson 7600/9600 or a 7800/9800. They are around and they can go cheap, it depends on the seller and if it is felt to be a good cause. Many businesses and individuals have upgraded to newer machinery and are looking to move the older/serviceable equipment on. Advertise that your need is for one of these or a like machine. In the US I would suggest Craigslist for one, but I am not sure of good free advertising in the UK. I'm also not sure if you can offset such items for tax right offs in the UK!

Bob

[neile]

As well as space requirements, I anticipate the vast majority of printing being done on this machine being A3 and A4 using pre-cut sheets.  Not only are these easier to sell within the society and to manage print costs for, but they are also less intimidating.  No feeding sheets in, you simply place them in the drawer. [snip] From my searches I've been unable to determine the exact equivalent in the Canon and the HP lineups - could someone point them out to me?

Before you get too excited about feeding paper from the paper cassette, make sure it can handle the thickness paper you plan on using. I don't believe any of the printers in your price range support feeding the Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk paper from the cartridge. It's strictly manual feed from the top. Same goes for most of the other high-end papers that are around 300 gsm weight.

As for the Canon equivalent, it's the Canon iPF5100 (or the older version the iPF5000). It supports roll paper which is a very nice addition, but it is quite a bit bigger than the Epson.

The local photo school I occasionally go to has a digital lab, and the way they price their prints is $0.04/sq in for ink. Students provide their own paper. There's a lab assistant that volunteers in the lab, and measures the prints to calculate the total cost. You can read about the lab at http://www.pcnw.org/.

Neil

[Thomas Krüger]

My link above points to a refurbished HP Z3100 24" printer for £1,175.00 from http://www.laserjet.co.uk/q5669a-p-7784.html
Unofficial HP Z3100 User Info: http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/
Use the HP media that works fine with this machine like the HP Professional Satin Photo Paper Q8759A (15 m roll for ~ £56) and you have a relative low-cost print system with an excellent output.

[JasonHopkins]

Hi

I am based in Edinburgh and have an Epson 2880 that I rarely use - just over 1 year old and still on the first set of inks!

Would be willing to sell for a couple of hundred.

I also have a Eye One Display 2 somewhere that I would sell.


However you should consider getting something like the HP mentioned in the post before, because 24"+ printers take the quality to a whole new level as well as savings on ink costs.

The bigger size also gives you headroom for larger prints in the future - but if you are really only going to be printing A4 and A3 it would be silly to have such a big printer.

Another minus point is you get a lot of wastage with roll media - so A4, A3 and A3+ packs of quality paper work out quite reasonable.

Jason

[Brammers]

Thanks once more for these replies.

I appreciate what can be done with a large format printer.  When I lived in Beijing I used them all the time and produced some lovely stuff for absolute peanuts.  Unfortunately I really don't see one of these being practical for our society - I think we're edging back towards the first post where the £1500 budget suddenly became £20,000.  Thomas, your link does indeed lead to a lovely printer which I'm sure would be absolutely wonderful, but it's a lovely printer that sucks up 80% of my budget right away - that's before I install the lighting, buy the computer and software that's going to run the thing, get the monitor calibrator, make some structural changes to the room itself...  If I got that I'd be powering it with a 486!!!

The Canon iPF5100 and 5000 both look excellent.  The best reviews of them seem to be on this website and they were both ranked against the Epson 4800.  Even so, 2nd hand prices are often cheaper than Epson 3800, they have the possibility of taking roll paper and they don't seem to be as tempremental as Epsons.  I'm certainly very tempted.  I've still not heard anything really dissuading me from a 2nd hand printer - I appreciate that one that's been absolutely hammererd might need heads replacing with the Canon range, but apart from the possibility of getting a broken one, is there anything that I should be aware of?  Do they get worse as they get older?

Jason, your offer is very tempting.  I'm just concerned about the fact that it's an Epson, and therefore won't like being idled over the summer holidays, and the fact that the ink cartridges are so small, which seems to make it more expensive per print than say the 3800 or the 5000.  I'll PM you my number and we can talk if you don't mind

Thanks also for the point about the cassettes not accepting all media.  This is actually an advantage to me - the credit software that I have cannot charge by media or by size, only by tray.  If users are forced to insert media that uses more ink into the slot I can charge them more and the society sucks up less of the ink costs.  Media that can go in the cassette takes up less ink and is therefore cheaper - good stuff.  Those who care about the quality they get by printing on the heavier papers are less likely to mind the hassle, those who are slightly more timid will appreciate the cassette.

Thanks once more for your thoughts - it really is useful to be able to draw on so much experience!  I would love some thoughts on my outstanding queries.

[Les Sparks]

You might want to get in touch with Vincent Oliver the man behind Photo-i Digital Photography (Photo-i.
He's in the UK and has considerable experience with various printers (see his reviews). You might also want to check the Photo-i forum and get in touch with some of the people posting there regarding the printers you're interested in.  There has been considerable discussion of the effects of not using printers for long periods of time and other issues you seem interested in.
Les