over printed = possible?

[titusbear]

11/09/2009 AM

hello:

after looking at several works by artists like Sigmar Polke ("Lens Paintings") et.al. - I'm interested in the concept of 'over-painting' = or in my case 'over-printing'.

I have an Epson 4880 - exclusively matte black.  I'd like to try and 'overprint' by running an already printed image through the printer again to 'apply' a second image.  But I have a number of questions /concerns:

1.  will doing so in any way, shape, form affect /damage the printer head?    other printer parts (drive mechanism?)

2. do Epson inks become 'brittle' (i.e. may crack when sheet bends around through the sheet feeder ***) requiring a straight through
loading?     *which may not - as an artist - be a bad thing

3. any insights /suggestions on how to proceed /experiment?

thanks

e/tb
contemplativeeye.com

[Geoff Wittig]

11/09/2009 AM

hello:

after looking at several works by artists like Sigmar Polke ("Lens Paintings") et.al. - I'm interested in the concept of 'over-painting' = or in my case 'over-printing'.

I have an Epson 4880 - exclusively matte black.  I'd like to try and 'overprint' by running an already printed image through the printer again to 'apply' a second image.  But I have a number of questions /concerns:

1.  will doing so in any way, shape, form affect /damage the printer head?    other printer parts (drive mechanism?)

2. do Epson inks become 'brittle' (i.e. may crack when sheet bends around through the sheet feeder ***) requiring a straight through
loading?     *which may not - as an artist - be a bad thing

3. any insights /suggestions on how to proceed /experiment?

thanks

e/tb
contemplativeeye.com

I tried tackling this with the Epson 7600 a few years back as a way to get a better D-max with matte black, after reading an article on the subject about Craig Blacklock's printing methods. He was applying a "skeletal black" layer for the darkest shadows to get better density and depth, then re-printing the rest of the image by running the paper through a second time. This required making some marks at the edge of the paper and lining it up against some cardboard taped to the printer's exit path to ensure perfect registration. I also had to lightly tape a piece of blank white paper over the image area to get the printer to accept the already printed page; the Epsons 'read' the incoming paper and reject a page that's already printed on. I don't see how it could damage the printer as long as you give the first pass printing time to dry, but using a straight-through printing path is highly recommended to avoid flaking.

Honestly, after all that work it wasn't worth the effort. Turns out matte black ink doesn't yield any better D-max if you lay down more of it in the darkest shadow areas. To the contrary, sometimes you even get a reversal and chalky grey shadows from too much ink.

Having said that, printing guru Richard Benson has modified Epson printers to permit him to run paper through them for multiple passes using differing custom inksets to yield some reportedly very cool 3-D effects.
Benson's book can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Printed-Picture-Rich...5418&sr=8-1
Highly recommended for anyone interested in book printing and reproduction methods through history.

[titusbear]

thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[neil snape]

According to Jack Duganne they were running Iris prints twice to increase density.

Although from my side, and experience with the inks we use today, I cannot see any increase in density possible due to the limitations of the transparency of the inks, and their dry down.

I have tried many types of over printing both dye and pigment and cannot see image quality going up by doing so. It does however allow embedded an image with a different character than if it were simply printed one time, as the GCR will allow some areas to have a lot more pigment in certain mid tones.

Registration is always going to be a problem.

Ernst Dinkla probably had some way with the Epson series, and does now with the HP Z as posted for double sided printing.

[titusbear]

I'm not interested in increasing density.  I am interested in the possibility of 'over- printing'  a kind of 'wash' or
other brush-stoke type layer onto an existing print.  Polke obviously over-paints


link:  to see what I mean

http://lookintomyowl.com/sigmar-polke-linsenbilder.html

it there a way to do this for prints (I am trying to 'add' the same over-print additions to a number of different existing prints -
thereby making the only 'connection' the theme of the added graphic.




Ernst Dinkla probably had some way with the Epson series, and does now with the HP Z as posted for double sided printing.
[/quote]

[a.lorge]

If you are going for a sigmar polke-like layer building effect, you might want to try some sort of acylic transfer technique instead of running the print through the printer twice.  If you run a print though the printer twice, the paper coating also absorbs the  second layer of ink.  The print looks just as flat as it would if you were to add a digital layer in photoshop.  Only the values and registration are much harder to control.  You might want to experiment with acylic emulsion transfers.  Basically, you apply 2-3 layers of acrylic gel (golden self-leveling gel works very well) to a non stick carrier sheet (for sale here: scroll down to dass ultra thin carrier sheets) let that layer dry and then apply an inkjet receptive coating on top.  If you also invest the coating rod inkaid sells, it's relatively easy to get a smooth flawless surface.  So then you just let that sheet dry and print whatever you want on it.  Peel it off the carrier sheet and attach it to print you are adding onto using a thin layer of acrylic medium.

[neil snape]

I'm not interested in increasing density.  I am interested in the possibility of 'over- printing'  a kind of 'wash' or
other brush-stoke type layer onto an existing print.  Polke obviously over-paints


link:  to see what I mean

http://lookintomyowl.com/sigmar-polke-linsenbilder.html

it there a way to do this for prints (I am trying to 'add' the same over-print additions to a number of different existing prints -
thereby making the only 'connection' the theme of the added graphic.




Ernst Dinkla probably had some way with the Epson series, and does now with the HP Z as posted for double sided printing.

Well overprinting with an inkjet would do this but not white ink with the printers I have. Perhaps the Rolands have white ink , I don't know.
The above post with acrylic overlays would be interesting and probably closer to the effect of the originals.

[titusbear]

again, thanks to all for the thoughtful comments - especially for an 'artist's' request

[Ernst Dinkla]

11/09/2009 AM

hello:

after looking at several works by artists like Sigmar Polke ("Lens Paintings") et.al. - I'm interested in the concept of 'over-painting' = or in my case 'over-printing'.

I have an Epson 4880 - exclusively matte black.  I'd like to try and 'overprint' by running an already printed image through the printer again to 'apply' a second image.  But I have a number of questions /concerns:

1.  will doing so in any way, shape, form affect /damage the printer head?    other printer parts (drive mechanism?)

2. do Epson inks become 'brittle' (i.e. may crack when sheet bends around through the sheet feeder ***) requiring a straight through
loading?     *which may not - as an artist - be a bad thing

3. any insights /suggestions on how to proceed /experiment?

thanks

e/tb
contemplativeeye.com

Some years back I have done that with an Epson 10000 + MIS 7600 inks. In that case the same image (geometric design) was printed twice to increase the dark ultramarine color depth on Photorag. Done with a RIP and running with no ink limitation. More to get a silkscreen like layer and I should have done it in silkscreen printing, it didn't earn me any money with the high wasted prints number. The ink surface became very vulnerable too but not in the sense that it will crack. More finger nail > gloss marks. With lighter images and less worry about the register there is no reason why it can't be done. The heads will not suffer if enough drying time is given in between.

Whether it can be compared with Polke's media is another question.  Not a fan of Polke for a long time so I have not seen them in the flesh, it looks like they are painted on both sides of corrugated polypropylene or (I hope so for the collector) on both sides of polycarbonate "doppelstech" sheets. In that case that is too rigid to pull through a 4800. Better find a sign shop that prints UV curing inks or solvent or Latex inkjet inks on uncoated plastics like that.

There are some thinner transparent-translucent papers and foils with inkjet coatings but very few of them with dual sided coatings. Check some CAD media suppliers. You could also check some non woven textiles and Japanese papers with inkjet coatings.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[titusbear]

Whether it can be compared with Polke's media is another question.  Not a fan of Polke for a long time so I have not seen them in the flesh,


Not a fan of his art, but a fan /collector of techniques /tools to do 'art' -  

thanks for the insights

[a.lorge]

I rececntly read an article in Art in America that mentioned Polke's materials.  The ridged layers are a "combed polymer gel"  link to article