Profiling Issues With Apple Computers

[EricC]

I have read the new article, Solving Recent Profiling Issues With Apple Computers
Epson Printers and Photoshop  here : http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/solving.shtml

However I wonder how I could use this workaround in my own situation.

I have a ColorMunki Photo and use this for profiling both my monitor and printer an Epson 3800.

As per the instuctions on ColorMunki's web site I am saving the profiles as version 2 types, however I am still having problems with the prints being dark.

Having read the article I do not see how I could use the workaround as the test images for profiling are created by and printed from within ColorMunki's own software, therefore printing from Photoshop CS4 and assigning profiles is not an option I have.

Does anyone have any ideas that may help?

Many thanks.

Regards
Eric

[digitaldog]

The ColorMunki should be printing the targets correctly. And why they are not printed correctly, the final results are butt ugly so be sure the statement “my prints are too dark” doesn’t mean darker than the display. Do they really look dark any way you view them?

[EricC]

Thank you for your reply,

I have been reading pages and pages of information on the web with regards to problems and fixes and workarounds with Snow Leopard, CS4 and Epson print drivers that maybe I am expecting too much.

What i mean is that the shadows and darker colours in the print are much darker even when viewed directly under a light source than they are on the display.

I was expecting better, maybe I am expecting too much.

Regards
Eric

[digitaldog]

I suspect this is far more a disconnect in the print viewing conditions and the calibration of the display (and how you soft proof) then the bugs being discussed. Do a search for “my prints are too dark”. Its been discussed here a lot recently.

[EricC]

I have done a search for “my prints are too dark”. and read all of the information I could find both here and many other photo related web sites. I have also tried various viewing conditions, re-calibrated my display and used the soft proof from within Photoshop CS4.

I did not just jump in and post a question without doing some research. Please accept my apologies for wasting everyones time. I was just asking the question regarding the article linked to in the first post.

[jjlphoto]

It is important to have a dedicated test file to print out to evaluate your chain. A file that you never ever edit. Andrew has a good one on his site. I use it when I put a new printer on line, update a driver, use a new paper/profile, etc.

Once you have that image, send it out to a few pro labs like MPIX, WHCC, etc. (with no adjustments made at the lab). Order both a C-print and an inkjet print. Get a feel for the similarities and differences. Compare them to what you are outputting. Not in the direct blast of low autumn sun, but in a more normal viewing environment. Booths are fine once you have your controls tightened up and know what you are looking for, but no one hangs their prints in a booth.

[Jeff Phillips]

I have done a search for “my prints are too dark”. and read all of the information I could find both here and many other photo related web sites. I have also tried various viewing conditions, re-calibrated my display and used the soft proof from within Photoshop CS4.

I did not just jump in and post a question without doing some research. Please accept my apologies for wasting everyones time. I was just asking the question regarding the article linked to in the first post.

I had similar issues with a different Epson model.  Prints from CS3 would print fine.  Prints from CS4 would be consistantly darker.   I had calibrated the monitor, lighting conditions were consistent (Solux lighting in the print room)  and great care was taken to ensure that the image was not double profiled and the same paper profile and settings were used from CS3 to CS4.  Again - same computer, same image, same settings used on CS3 and CS4.  Every time the prints from CS4 were significantly darker from CS3.  The CS3 prints matched the monitor and my expectations.  The prints from CS4 were dark compared to the monitor and the CS3 print.  My, not inexpensive, solution was to purchase Imageprint for my printing.  Although it is expensive it has cured my printing pain.  Hopefully Imageprint is not out of reach for you.  In any case at least you know you are not alone and someone else feels your pain...

[EricC]

Many thanks for your comments John and Jeff and for your understanding on how frustrating this problem can be.

I will have a look for the test print on Andrew's site and check out the local pro labs. I have read about CS3 and CS4 before with regards to CS3 being fine and CS4 being a little more trying which is what the Solving Recent Profiling Issues With Apple Computers Epson Printers and Photoshop appears to allude to.

Many thanks for everyones comments and remarks. It is good to know that we are not alone.

Best Regards
Eric

[Wayne Fox]

I was just asking the question regarding the article linked to in the first post.

The article you refer to is in regards to getting accurately printed targets from CS4 and leopard/snow leopard so you can make the profiles. Once you have accurate targets printed the process is unchanged and the article doesn't refer to that part at all.  So the question would be is your printing problems (dark prints) related to inaccurate targets printed from colormunki.

It's hard to answer this question ... obviously if all the colors on your target are sort of light and washed out without any deep saturated tones, then the target would be suspect.  I'm not familiar with the colormunki software, but most of the targets are tiff files stored somewhere, it certainly wouldn't hurt to locate one of them and try printing them through Photoshop using the steps from the article.

However, dark prints can also be caused by double profiling, by paper type mismatches, and simply by having a poor viewing light/too bright of a display (which as Andrew mentions is the most typical problem).

As suggested by others, I would print a known target print using a standard paper and a factory profile.  This is the logical first step.

[digitaldog]

Something else to try besides the tip of Eric’s. I just tested this and it works on my end. Print the targets (untagged) in Preview!

Printing ICC Profile Targets via Apple Preview 5.0 (501)

1.  Open the target file and select “Print”
2.  Select the 'Color Matching' pull down menu from the Preview app and select 'EPSON Color Controls'
3.  Select your various Epson driver settings for the profile you want to create and ensure you've turned OFF the Epson Color Management under our driver menu.

I just did this and also used Eric’s technique. The targets were measured right out of the printer, hence that max deltaE due to dry down. It appears that this is printing correctly (matching Photoshop using Eric’s tip). Test done with the 3880:

Overall - (930 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.25
    Max dE:   1.04
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.14

Best 90% - (836 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.22
    Max dE:   0.46
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Worst 10% - (94 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.55
    Max dE:   1.04
    Min dE:   0.47
 StdDev dE:   0.09

--------------------------------------------------

Please test this if you can, it proves a point that Preview under Snow Leopard and at least an Epson driver greater than 6.x version work properly.

[digitaldog]

I just tested this under 10.5 using Preview 4.2. It works there as well (here’s the deltaE differences between Preview 5 versus 4.2):

Overall - (930 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.16
    Max dE:   1.71
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Best 90% - (836 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.14
    Max dE:   0.28
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.06

Worst 10% - (94 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.35
    Max dE:   1.71
    Min dE:   0.28
 StdDev dE:   0.15

--------------------------------------------------

[johnkraus]

I have another issue- trying to get decent prints with Snow Leopard and an Epson 7600- which Epson has provided no new drivers for. Any suggestions?

What comes closest is assigning the paper profile to the file and then printing with all color management turned off. But still not quite there.

Black Point compensation is definitely an issue. Turning it off does seem essential with Snow Leopard.

I'm disappointed that Epson has no driver for a printer that I spend many thousands of dollars of inks with. Yes it's not current but it's not ancient either. Any suggestions appreciated.

[Schewe]

Yes it's not current but it's not ancient either. Any suggestions appreciated.

In compute/printer years, yes indeed, it's ancient–seriously...

You need to understand the industry has moved on (even if you haven't). It's not at all clear that Epson COULD write a current compatible driver even if they wanted to...yes, your printer is that old :~(

Your best bet (sorry to say) is to print out using "Printer Manages Color" and making the adjustments needed in the Epson color controls to get the output you wants. That's the reality cause the odds of Epson rewriting the driver for the 76/9600 is right down there with ZERO!

[Wayne Fox]

I think Jeff's nailed it, and not to sound "cold" or "mean spirited" but personally I would prefer Epson not spend valuable resources trying to update a driver for a printer that is end of life.  The 9600 is bordering on pre-historic from a technology perspective.

There are other options ... many of us have older hardware running older OS's just to drive older printers.  We still have several 4000's in daily use.  Buying an old used Mac with an old OS and using it like  print server is certainly an option.

However one thing I would suggest you try, rather than just assigning it to the paper profile, I would make a copy of the file and  try converting it to the paper profile, then print it letting PS manage colors using the exact same profile.  because it's the same profile you get this "null" profile effect ... similar to what this process does trying to print targets.  But because you convert it you have actually mapped the colors into the printer space.

[EricC]

Andrew,
Thank you for coming up with the above work-around, i will give it a try when I get home from the office this afternoon.
Many thanks for your help.
Regards
Eric

[na goodman]

You should be able to find your targets that ColorMunki uses in the CM Folder. If you're printing out of CM you will run into the same problems everyone is having with not being able to turn color management off. Find your targets and print them out thru PS using Eric's workaround or try Andrew's suggestion with Preview.

[JeanMichel]

HI,

Perhaps not the same exact issue, but I have experienced a printing problem with CS4 and and my Epson 2400. Prints (soft proofed, etc) printed correctly using CS3; with CS4 the same file prints very dark. The simple solution for me is to open the file in CS4, re-save and close it, reopen it and send it to print (using the PS manages colour, etc. parameters). The resulting print is identical to the one printed earlier with CS3. New images brought from ACR into CS4 will also print dark unless I use the same save, close, re-open, print. It doesn't seem to make sense -- after all it is an identical file in an identical work space, and it is a bit of a pain to have to do so but so far that is the only solution that I have found. I listed this a while ago in this forum and a few people responded with a similar solution.
My OS is 10.4.11
Perhaps this will help solving your problem.

Jean-Michel

[Schewe]

Perhaps not the same exact issue...

Not at all. You would do far better posting in a new thread and not confusing this one...

[EricC]

You should be able to find your targets that ColorMunki uses in the CM Folder. If you're printing out of CM you will run into the same problems everyone is having with not being able to turn color management off. Find your targets and print them out thru PS using Eric's workaround or try Andrew's suggestion with Preview.

I have had a look in the ColorMunki folder and am unable to find any profiles that Photoshop can open unfortunately.

Regards
Eric