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Author Topic: Experiences with P65+, Arca M-Line, Rotaslide, Rodenstock HR W lenses  (Read 4845 times)

JdeV

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Hi,

I've got a lot of information from this forum so I thought I should provide some back. Great too if I get any suggestions for improvements.
Forgive me if some of it is obvious.

Just did a big architectural/cityscape job around the world using:
My Arca M-Line (but with rented 6 x 9 F-line standards),
Two P65+ backs,
Arca Rotaslide,
Rodenstock Digaron HR W 40mm,
Rodenstock HR W 50mm,
Rodenstock HR W 70mm,
Schneider 72mm Super Angulon XL,
Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital 90mm,
Schneider 90mm Super Angulon XL,
Schneider 120mm Super Symmar HM,
Schneider Digitar 150mm

I shot verticals as single frames and horizontals as three part vertical stitches. On the photographic side I had a photo assistant, a digi-tech and a retoucher with me. I was aiming for a natural, very sharp but not sharpened look with stacks of information. 8" x 10" Kodak 160NC contact printed if you like.
We shot from regular ground level on a tripod, to ladders, cherry-pickers and scissor lifts in all conceivable natural and artificial lighting conditions, day and night.
We tested everything as thoroughly as we could before and during the shoot.
It was a commercial job so I can't show you the pictures. You will see them in print though.
In the end everything came out really well and the stitching turned out to be the right approach, most importantly because it was much easier to compose and use movements over a 53mm x 82mm area and, of course, because of the phenomenal detail in wide shots.

This is some of what I learned:

CAMERA
1) Focusing is a nightmare. No one had a definitive solution including my NY assistant who has worked for everyone ditto the very experienced digi-techs. We just had to keep checking on the laptop until it was right.
It was the same with trying to achieve precise alignment when swings or tilts were used.

2) Surprisingly, camera shake seemed as good or better than film, even at a 1/15 sec, on a cherry picker at its highest point with the spirit level bubbles moving, nearly all shots were 100% sharp.

3) I love my M-Line but for this purpose the focus gearing could do with being finer.

4) We tested it and the Rotaslide had perfect alignment between the ground glass and the sensor plane even with the 40mm focused on a Focus-Align scale at F4.

5) In my view the F-Line standards with their friction, rather than locking, rise and fall, have too much play in them and are too easy to move accidentally when sliding the back backwards and forwards. This problem could have been avoided if I had used the correct M-Line format set.

6) The Rotaslide with P65+ attached is too heavy to be only secured by one sprung catch on the camera. The back wobbled around way too much when slid across. It didn't help that the indents for the different stitch marks required too much force to move between them.

7) Because of 5) and 6) the ground glass could be level but when the back was slid across it was out.

8) For my purposes (I shot vertically with the back the whole time) the rotating back mount on the Rotaslide was just one more thing to go out of alignment. Even were I swopping landscape to portrait format I think I would rather not have a rotating back if it meant things could be more rock solid.


LENSES
8) The new Rodenstock HR W lenses are absolutely phenomenal. I have never seen anything sharper. Particularly the 40mm and 50mm. This is a whole new level of resolution. Wide open they are already mind-blowing and I couldn't distinguish sharpness between F5.6 and F8. Stated image circle of 90mm is accurate though, so only minor movement is possible with a three part stitch. They are a retrofocus design which gives you much more space between the ground glass and the rear of the lens and I could detect no downside to this when using movements (unlike, say, older telephoto lenses for view cameras).

9) The Apo-Sironar Digital 90mm is not great. It is certainly no sharper and possibly less sharp than a 90mm Super Angulon XL but has much less image circle.

10) The Schneider 72mm Super Angulon XL is very very close in sharpness to the 70mm HR W i.e. amazing for a film lens with that amount of image circle.

11) The 120mm Schneider Super Symmar is very sharp but not as bitingly contrasty as the digital lenses. I really liked the way it looked though, particularly with out of focus backgrounds, and used it a lot.


BACKS
12) The P65+ is phenomenal under artificial light, even when there are a multitude of differently coloured sources. I've never used anything better including many film stocks, Hasselblad H3D 39, H3D 31, P45+, Canon 1Ds mkIII and D3x.

13) Both digital backs showed error messages fairly regularly. Sometimes this was because I had shot whilst the back was writing to the card but mostly there was no good reason. The only solution was to switch off the back and switch it on again. Ditto Firewire connections.

14) There is no Live View yet for the P65. This really sucks with the focus issue.

15) When tethered you can't zoom in on the camera LCD to check sharpness. (Presumably because the back has no image available to it to do so but couldn't it be held in a buffer?). I never normally shoot tethered so this was news to me but maybe it applies to all backs.

16) It's very hard to get away from a certain snappy 'advertising' look using the P65+ and Capture One even when you dial out all the sharpening and tweak the curves. I mainly used to shoot colour 160NC negative film and for a whole number of reasons that look is almost impossible to achieve with this back. The P45+ is somewhat better in this respect.

17) At full resolution, as far as I'm concerned, the old rules for medium format backs still apply; 50-100 I.S.O., 200 I.S.O at a pinch, beyond that forget it. The 200 I.S.O. files under the conditions I shot have significant issues with noise, colour and tonality I can use them but I would rather not.

18) Issues with lens casts were much less than with the P45+ and were pretty straightforward to deal with using the supplied bit of perspex and Capture One.

CONCLUDING COMMENTS
I own the M-Line and the film lenses. The rest was rented. I really like view cameras and have used them heavily for 15 years but given all the issues shooting digital on location I think I need to test the Arca RM3D, Alpa XY, Sinar Arctec, Cambos etc. I also really like the principle of a sliding stitching back but the Rotaslide doesn't make the grade for me. The Rodenstock lenses were just superlative. The P65+ is unacceptably unreliable and lacking in key areas for the money it costs (but I will keep on renting it when appropriate). It will be interesting to see what the new Hasselblad with the same chip is like.
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AlexLF

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 01:21:41 pm »

Thank you for sharing this as I also have a LF view camera and looking into MF digital.

Could you tell how P65+ works with rise/fall? Have you happen to use other movements?

From your post I understand that digital back has either to be integrated with the camera body for perfect (just like Hasselblad H3D/H4D) or attached to a camera built specifically for MFDB. Is this correct?
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rainer_v

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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 01:53:52 pm »


thanks for sharing. very interesting report .....
how long took the shot?
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rainer viertlböck
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archivue

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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 02:44:22 pm »

9) The Apo-Sironar Digital 90mm is not great. It is certainly no sharper and possibly less sharp than a 90mm Super Angulon XL but has much less image circle.

with my aptus 22, this lens is just the best i've used, this included : 35xl digitar, 45 digital, 55digital, 90 digital, 150S.

so, what about distortion with the 40 ?

thanks for your report !
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Christopher

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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 03:12:10 pm »

Well I am surprised with your findings with a P65s, I use one with a Large format camera all the time and didn't have any problems in the last 4 months. No livew preview was quite bad, but it looks like C1 5.0 addressed that issue. (Haven't tested it myself, yet)

I still would really like to try the P65 on a arctec, but Sinar is still really still about phase one support. V-mount is no option.....
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Christopher Hauser
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JdeV

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 03:26:09 pm »

Quote from: AlexLF
Thank you for sharing this as I also have a LF view camera and looking into MF digital.

Could you tell how P65+ works with rise/fall? Have you happen to use other movements?

From your post I understand that digital back has either to be integrated with the camera body for perfect (just like Hasselblad H3D/H4D) or attached to a camera built specifically for MFDB. Is this correct?

The P65+ works considerably better than the P45+ in terms of lens casts. I used all movements and this applies across the board.

I am not sure what the current optimal solution is with regard to the camera. I need to test other options. I found no clear evidence of an alignment issue (in the sense of the sensor surface not being at exactly the same depth as the ground glass), just that I couldn't hit accurate focus consistently. I have talked to many people and I suspect everybody finds it a problem. Actually I thought it was an alignment issue but I swapped backs, Rotaslides and H-fit adaptor plates systematically and eliminated alignment as causing the focus problem in this instance. Integrated systems would therefore not resolve this issue. However, there was a problem with twist, and left-right movement with my set-up.
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JdeV

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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 03:29:38 pm »

Quote from: Christopher
Well I am surprised with your findings with a P65s, I use one with a Large format camera all the time and didn't have any problems in the last 4 months. No livew preview was quite bad, but it looks like C1 5.0 addressed that issue. (Haven't tested it myself, yet)

I still would really like to try the P65 on a arctec, but Sinar is still really still about phase one support. V-mount is no option.....

Let's be clear about this. You cannot get live view on the P65+ at this time.
Phase say it will come soon but it is not here yet even in beta. I even had an assistant call Denmark and beg but they wouldn't let us have anything.
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JdeV

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 03:31:31 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
thanks for sharing. very interesting report .....
how long took the shot?
9 days. 6 shoot days. 27 set ups. Worst was getting off the plane from Hong Kong to New York (15 1/2 hour flight) and immediately starting shooting without even going to the hotel.
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Christopher

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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 03:33:39 pm »

Quote from: JdeV
Let's be clear about this. You cannot get live view on the P65+ at this time.
Phase say it will come soon but it is not here yet even in beta. I even had an assistant call Denmark and beg but they wouldn't let us have anything.

As far as I know, without saying any names to risk getting them involved there is a beta solution, which works right now. However you are correct, that this was unacceptable from Phase. If you needed live preview the P65 wasn't the right choice, sadly.

I was more interested in the error messages you spoke of, because besides live preview it has been rock solid. I had more problems with my 5DII.

Really would have loved to see some work, but can understand the problem. Can you let us know when and where we can see some of the images. Once they are printed.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 03:35:50 pm by Christopher »
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Christopher Hauser
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JdeV

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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 03:36:20 pm »

Quote from: archivue
9) The Apo-Sironar Digital 90mm is not great. It is certainly no sharper and possibly less sharp than a 90mm Super Angulon XL but has much less image circle.

with my aptus 22, this lens is just the best i've used, this included : 35xl digitar, 45 digital, 55digital, 90 digital, 150S.

so, what about distortion with the 40 ?

thanks for your report !
Maybe the 90mm lens I had was a bad example. Distortion on the 40 seemed good but I was shooting stitched complex scenes that would not necessarily reveal subtle distortion problems. As I said though, resolution and contrast were incredible even wide open. Properly breathtaking.
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JdeV

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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 03:39:37 pm »

Quote from: Christopher
As far as I know, without saying any names to risk getting them involved there is a beta solution, which works right now. However you are correct, that this was unacceptable from Phase. If you needed live preview the P65 wasn't the right choice, sadly.

I was more interested in the error messages you spoke of, because besides live preview it has been rock solid. I had more problems with my 5DII.

Really would have loved to see some work, but can understand the problem. Can you let us know when and where we can see some of the images. Once they are printed.
I thought this was the case and my digi-techs claimed to have the latest Capture beta but it would not do live view and Phase denied there was a beta out that would.
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asf

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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 03:51:26 pm »

I'd think stitches with the new Rodenstock 40 W, esp on the p65, would present distortion issues
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 03:51:44 pm by asf »
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Christopher

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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 03:55:05 pm »

Quote from: asf
I'd think stitches with the new Rodenstock 40 W, esp on the p65, would present distortion issues

as long as only the back moves not at all.
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Christopher Hauser
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JdeV

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 04:34:18 pm »

Quote from: asf
I'd think stitches with the new Rodenstock 40 W, esp on the p65, would present distortion issues
Just checked. I shot one main shot with the 40 and I can't see any significant distortion. There are a lot of vertical lines in the top two thirds of the image and they all seem straight. I would need to test more systematically to comment definitively though.
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