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Author Topic: Looking for canvas  (Read 6776 times)

BernardLanguillier

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« on: October 27, 2009, 09:29:16 pm »

Hello all,

I am seriously considering trying our canvas for very large prints on the 9900.

What is currently the recommended type of canvas for photographic results on an Epson 9900?

I am now looking at Hahnemuhle Monet Canvas, is it any good?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard

KenLane

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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 09:59:13 pm »

Hopefully you will receive answers on the canvas you've asked about.  I've only used one type of canvas so far and it was Epson's satin canvas.  I feel the results are phenomenal enough that I won't be looking to try other canvas products until I get to see one that looks significantly better and at the moment; I just don't see that happening.  
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bill t.

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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 10:45:52 pm »

I have done just a few test prints on sheet sized Monet and like it very much.  It's fine weave makes it very sharp printing for a canvas, something we panographers can appreciate more than many.  And color is great, once the canvas is glossy coated it's not too far from the better glossy papers, and prints that rich at large sizes are quite a stunning experience.  I am currently using Fredrix 777 which is almost as sharp printing, but as soon as I am through with the winter shows I think I will switch to Monet because Hahnemuhle seems to have a much better handle on quality control.

I feel canvas is the only practical way to make prints above about 24" in the short dimension, and especially panoramic prints.  So easy to handle!  Matte canvas is very rugged at all phases of printing, and once coated it's extremely rugged, you can safely handle canvas in ways that would trash any fine art paper.  I can mount and frame a 36 x 90 coated canvas without glass in a little less time than it used to take me to frame a small paper print.
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BernardLanguillier

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Looking for canvas
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 11:05:55 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
I feel canvas is the only practical way to make prints above about 24" in the short dimension, and especially panoramic prints.  So easy to handle!  Matte canvas is very rugged at all phases of printing, and once coated it's extremely rugged, you can safely handle canvas in ways that would trash any fine art paper.  I can mount and frame a 36 x 90 coated canvas without glass in a little less time than it used to take me to frame a small paper print.

Yep, the same conclusion is drawing me towards canvas.

If I may ask, do you just nail them to the underlying wooden frame like you would do with a painting canvas, or do you use specific techniques to generate tension?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

bill t.

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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 11:45:33 pm »

I glue them to Gatorfoam using a fabric glue called Miracle Muck.

Lay the print out on a piece of Gatorfoam that is a few mm smaller than the print on 3 sides, but a few hundred mm longer on one side.  The print should be hanging slightly past the Gator on three sides.  When the print is aligned, tape it down all the way across on the side that is longer than the canvas.  Roll the print up on a tube.  Using a VERY THIN 200mm foam roller roll out 12ml of Muck for each square foot (you have to saturate the roller first, takes about 80ml).  Applying slight tension and pushing slightly downward, roll the print out on the glue.  Rub down print with a cotton gloved hand.  Press down any fabric bumps with a pointed burnisher.  Have a pin ready in case of air bubbles, but if you rolled out the print correctly you will not have any air bubbles.  The print will warp towards you for a few hours, then flatten out perfectly.  You must use only Gatorfoam, regular foamcore will warp horribly and stay that way forever.  The reason the print should be slightly larger than the Gator on three sides is so you don't pick up glue on your hand while you are pressing down the print near the edges.  This works REALLY GOOD!  I can mount several large prints in an hour, using $6.00 worth of tools.

Next day I put the mounted printed in a nice classic frame that I cut with my beat up Morso Chopper, or maybe on one of the better saws at the shop.  I don't even like to remember how hard it was to frame regular prints.

Or, if you enjoy worrying, you can stretch your prints on canvas stretcher bars and wonder how long it will take for them to sag.

Of course, the canvas must be coated before gluing.  The biggest nut to crack regarding canvas is coating.

You can also drymount canvas in sections using tissues like Fusion4000.  IMHO too much work and too hot.
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dgberg

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 04:27:22 am »

My business is all canvas. I have tried the 2 Epson canvases. Matte and Satin. The Satin is just to glossy for my taste even though you can bring the sheen down with Glamor II. Breathing Color has the Chromata White and the new Lyve. Both excellent with cost being the only catch. I have found Lexjet's Sunset Select Matte to be the best value to date. At about 90 cents a square foot considerably cheaper then the others but still seems to have all the qualities of the higher priced canvases. I use Glamor II on all canvas mixed 50/50 matte and gloss.
I stretch about 90% of my canvas work as gallery wraps. I have the Gallery Stretcher machine and of course make all my frames from stretcher bars purchased from decor moulding.
Gatorfoam and Miracle Muck is the way to go if you do not want to do gallery wraps. You can then purchase a simple frame for your flat canvas. I purchase black brushed aluminum from American Frame.
Good luck with your venture into canvas.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 12:44:44 pm by Dan Berg »
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Craig Murphy

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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 09:06:49 am »

Dan.  Are you printing with matte or photo black ink on the Lexjet canvas?  I wonder how they can sell that canvas at half the price of others?
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dgberg

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 12:42:56 pm »

I am using Matte ink. I am still testing the Lexjet. They say it is their premium canvas but it is about $90.00 less per roll then their glossy version,not sure why. It is now $72.00 per 24" X 40 roll. The only issue I have found so far is you can hardly breath on the finish after the Glamor II coating without scraping a littl ink off. I may be pushing the drying process as I sometimes gallery wrap these after the Glamor II has only dried for about 4 hours. I always let the ink dry overnight. (12 hr. min.)
Some say you need to let it dry at least 24 hours and that may be part of my problem.Even so the price is right so the testing continues.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 12:48:28 pm by Dan Berg »
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pindman

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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 02:10:18 pm »

I'm using Breathing Color Lyve http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/index.php?cPath=355 with my 9900, and absolutely love it.  Plus, the company will make free profiles for you (although the one for my 9900 should work fine on yours).  Highly recommended!

Paul
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Craig Murphy

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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 07:55:12 pm »

That's what I have now. Lyve.  Nice of them to make the profiles.  I'm using PK ink with it though.  How much of a difference do you think it is PK vs MK with that canvas.  Breathing color feels that the PK is ok.  Maybe only a slightly less black density.  Any other opinions out there.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 12:41:19 am »

Thank you all for your kind advice.

Cheers,
Bernard

Wayne Fox

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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2009, 02:23:27 am »

Quote from: Dan Berg
I am using Matte ink. I am still testing the Lexjet. They say it is their premium canvas but it is about $90.00 less per roll then their glossy version,not sure why. It is now $72.00 per 24" X 40 roll. The only issue I have found so far is you can hardly breath on the finish after the Glamor II coating without scraping a littl ink off. I may be pushing the drying process as I sometimes gallery wrap these after the Glamor II has only dried for about 4 hours. I always let the ink dry overnight. (12 hr. min.)
Some say you need to let it dry at least 24 hours and that may be part of my problem.Even so the price is right so the testing continues.

Breathing color has some much cheaper canvas as well, but doesn't have near the longevity.  Their two top canvases are amazingly white for having no OBA's.  Is there some good test information on the Lexjet for longevity?

personally I am using the Chromata White with Glamour II gloss ... not mixed.  I like the results, but  a friend running a color lab here in SLC is doing some really nice canvas work, and he said he was using a Lexjet product as well - so now I'm trying to figure out which one.
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LeiMeng

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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 12:33:20 pm »

What about profile?  I'm using 9900.  The icc profile of Chromata White I received from Breathing Color is less than ideal.  No details in the dark area.  So far the best canned profile of canvas I used is Epson's 7900/9900 canvas matte.  Do you all make your own profile?
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 01:40:33 pm »

Quote from: LeiMeng
What about profile?  I'm using 9900.  The icc profile of Chromata White I received from Breathing Color is less than ideal.  No details in the dark area.  So far the best canned profile of canvas I used is Epson's 7900/9900 canvas matte.  Do you all make your own profile?

 I found Breathing Color's profile for the 11880 gave me pretty good results, but the 7900 profile was terrible.  Perhaps they've made a new one, but currently I use the 11880 since it doesn't require an ink swap for MK ink.  I started building a profile for the 7900, but between problems with PS getting accurate targets, and my apparently worthless i1i0 device, I decided just to stick to the 11880.

Except for panos most stuff I print needs to go on the bigger printer anyway.
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bill t.

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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2009, 09:55:54 pm »

And BC's 9880 stock download profiles for Chromata are off the mark as well, same problem as LeiMeng mentioned.  On my printer it's exactly the same as printing with no color management anywhere, very dark and heavy results.  Maybe they expect their customers will always have a custom profile made, have never tried one.  A very generous offer to be sure.

Best thing I ever did was make my own profiles, spot on results and no hint of the dreaded dark-print disease that seems to afflict so many people here.  $300 for the Spyder3 Print, which would buy 12 commercially made profiles.  But somehow it seems like money well spent even though I only use 3 different media types.  Have noticed that there are sometimes sudden manufacturing changes in media as a few months ago with Epson Premium Canvas Matte where the brightness, surface color, and texture suddenly changed dramatically.  Nice to know I can keep up with that stuff.

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Shutterbug2006

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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 03:59:52 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
And BC's 9880 stock download profiles for Chromata are off the mark as well, same problem as LeiMeng mentioned.  On my printer it's exactly the same as Have noticed that there are sometimes sudden manufacturing changes in media as a few months ago with Epson Premium Canvas Matte where the brightness, surface color, and texture suddenly changed dramatically.  Nice to know I can keep up with that stuff.

They use the same name for the product, but the texture changes? Somehow that doesn't seem right.
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Marlyn

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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 11:40:51 am »

I am also considering trying out  Canvas for some large pano's.

The interview with Andrew Collet and his Canvas shop on latest LLVJ 19 was very informative and timley !
Worth a look.

Regards

Mark
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pindman

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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2009, 11:57:39 am »

I'm not sure what the issue with profiles for Breathing Color canvas is.  You print a target on your printer and send it to them.  Tell them whether you want a glossy, semi=gloss or matte coating, as it slightly changes the profile.  They coat it before profiling.  Within a few days, and without charge, they send you a custom profile!  How can you argue with that???

Quote from: bill t.
And BC's 9880 stock download profiles for Chromata are off the mark as well, same problem as LeiMeng mentioned.  On my printer it's exactly the same as printing with no color management anywhere, very dark and heavy results.  Maybe they expect their customers will always have a custom profile made, have never tried one.  A very generous offer to be sure.

Best thing I ever did was make my own profiles, spot on results and no hint of the dreaded dark-print disease that seems to afflict so many people here.  $300 for the Spyder3 Print, which would buy 12 commercially made profiles.  But somehow it seems like money well spent even though I only use 3 different media types.  Have noticed that there are sometimes sudden manufacturing changes in media as a few months ago with Epson Premium Canvas Matte where the brightness, surface color, and texture suddenly changed dramatically.  Nice to know I can keep up with that stuff.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 11:58:22 am by pindman »
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bill t.

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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2009, 03:29:37 pm »

Quote from: pindman
I'm not sure what the issue with profiles for Breathing Color canvas is
The issue is that they have, or had until recently, canned profiles posted for download that are simply wrong for the media, they weren't even close to usable.  The rep I talked talked to about this admitted some of them were submitted by customers and that they were aware of some problems there.  The BC Chromata 9880 profile is/was a case in point.  That happens sometimes as manufacturers struggle to get their websites in shape.

The offer to make free customer profiles is outstanding and indicates BC's industry-leading committment to customer support.  But those generic downloads were completely counter-productive for at least a few different professional printers.

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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 09:55:03 pm »

Quote from: pindman
I'm not sure what the issue with profiles for Breathing Color canvas is.  You print a target on your printer and send it to them.  Tell them whether you want a glossy, semi=gloss or matte coating, as it slightly changes the profile.  They coat it before profiling.  Within a few days, and without charge, they send you a custom profile!  How can you argue with that???

If they are going to post a profile for downloading, they should at least insure the profile performs decently.  Current printers are consistent enough that profiling individual printer/media combinations isn't really necessary.  Their profile for the 7900 on Lyve media worked fine,( and perhaps by now they've posted a better version of the Chromata White.)

If you are going to have them make profiles, coating them yourself would be more logical.  This way they are reading the results of your specific workflow.  Profiling canvas is unique in that the coating changes the rendering of the image.  This is especially true because of the use of MK ink ... the coating completely changes the characteristics and the profile can only account for this if the targets are coated the same as the finished work.
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