Leica S2 Images

[ziocan]

Then he needs help too.  But that is good.  Leaves more women for me.  You guys chase those cars and cameras.  Keep yourself busy.

I think you need help too.

"something looking sexy" It is just a way of saying.

[telyt]

... I shoot Leica.  Because I used to feel that they had better lenses.  But no one but me ever saw that.  No one - ever - in 15 years.

The gallery owner I met with a couple months back had no idea which of my prints were from the Nikon or from the Leica.  Maybe he saw a difference, maybe not, but the print he made the biggest fuss over, for its color quality and detail, was made with the DMR & 280 APO and at the end of our meeting the prints he chose for the gallery were all made with the Leica.  Coincidence?

[Dick Roadnight]

Leica enthusiasts/collectors will buy S2's... and might leave them at home and use their M9s more...people who can afford large cameras cannot always be bothered to carry them.

I have a DLux-3, which I may sometime upgrade to a DLux-4 (for off-camera flash work).

Back in the 70s, when I got bored with my Nikon (tried a Mamiya briefly) and bought a Hasselblad, I thought that the only way to get a good sharp, contrasty 35mm slide was to take a pair of scissors to a Hasselblad slide... but you can get the same quality using Leica lenses.

I have a ¿Leica made? lens head for my Novoflex, and I look forward to mounting it on the front of my P3.

[Rob C]

Leica Back in the 70s, when I got bored with my Nikon (tried a Mamiya briefly) and bought a Hasselblad, I thought that the only way to get a good sharp, contrasty 35mm slide was to take a pair of scissors to a Hasselblad slide... but you can get the same quality using Leica lenses.

Dick, you were dreaming.

Having owned and worked with both 500C and 500CM bodies and 50, 80 snd 150mm lenses for them as well as with the Nikon F, F2, F3 and F4s there is no comparison between the same area situation you describe. Simply try it. You didn't even have to print the things (cut-outs) to know that dedicated top-grade 35mm equipment does better than top-grade 120 equipment cropped to the same 36mmx24mm format. Lens design restrictions preclude the same quality being able to be extended over a larger area with the result being compromise that reduces the quality when tested in the manner you suggest.

Someone else remarked about not being able to see the difference between Leica and other 35mm film work. In my last job as an employee we used to do sets for BBC TV in Scotland using an M3 and a 21mm, even thought the studio owner also had Nikon stuff. I remember printing the shots and being so impressed that I wished I could someday own the same equipment. In the end, the reflex system was far more suited to me and I never did buy into Leica, but for all that, I can't deny Leica their due: their lenses, those that I knew about, were certainly fantastic in the 60s and had their own handwriting.

One thing I would say, though, is that starting from scratch now, in a retired situation, were the funds available and no other equipment already sitting around the house doing precious little, I would be very tempted by the M9 and a single lens - probably a 35mm. Sometimes I feel that having too much choice simply gets in the way of actually going out and doing anything at all if you don't have to.

Someone else said that in a photograph, content is everything. He was right; and look is part of content.

Rob C

[Hywel]

Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad?  ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.

Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?

That was rather my thought as well. If the S2 had been released this time last year, I'd have given it consideration against the H3DII-31 that I went for. On paper at least I don't see much difference between the two systems. Except that, for all the Hasselblad bashing that goes on, the H3DII is a mature and established product with good system support, widely available from pro shops and hire outlets whereas the S2 is not even released yet.

There was just nothing about the S2 spec on paper that made it look like anything other than a catch-up to where Hasselblad already are.

Of course, there's much more to the intangibles of IQ than the on paper features set, and Leica lenses have very high repute, but the 'blad lenses are no slouches either.

I'd certainly have hired an S2 to try it out had it been available back in February, before making my buying decision, but to my eye they seem to be two or three years too late to a market which is already shrinking drastically.

  Hywel.

[eronald]

In all seriousness, Leica has cachet. Leica has BRAND POWER.  The S2 will do fine.  Blad had it, its fading. The new stuff is all function, no S-E-X.  S-E-X sells.  

I won't buy one, because I shoot for commerce where such a camera would probably hinder my work, would definitely hinder the ol' bottom line.

S-E-X sells in the studio fashion market - just look at the way Prophoto displaced Elinchrom by supplying sheer black housings and supple black cables matched to AD leather, boots and zippers.

Edmund

[gdwhalen]

I just don't agree that great design = sex.  Great design is great design.

[ziocan]

.................

[Dick Roadnight]

I just don't agree that great design = sex.  Great design is great design.

Great design is designed (and/or styled) for a purpose.

As an engineer, I do not enjoy seeing styling referred to as design, but good design/styling for an image-concious market may be "sexy", pleasing on the eye, likely to affect the hormone levels of the target market...

If any market is image-concious, might it be photographers?

[ThierryH]

If any market is image-concious, might it be photographers?

Photographers are possibly the most "emotional" among all other fields, as such certainly image-conscious. At least that is the way I have seen it during all my time with them. One cannot sell to photographers the same way one sells other products, there has to be emotions involved, being it in the product, being it in the human relationships.

Thierry

[narikin]

this conversation sure degenerated into a lot of nonsense.
anyone looking for serious info or thoughtful opinion on the S2, might think they were on Dpreview.

isn't this supposed to be a professional forum?
lets keep it on topic, please.

[pcunite]

isn't this supposed to be a professional forum? lets keep it on topic, please.

Oh please, the fact that Leica is making a medium format camera that is not a medium format camera that is now delayed for reasons unknown and Leaf has a back that is now selling for $10K and Canon will release a 1Ds Mark IV next year at 32mp, Hasselblad now has a full frame chip that is more full frame than their other full frame chip, I don't think your going to find any logic on forums anymore... the manufactures themselves are not logical.

[TMARK]

S-E-X sells in the studio fashion market - just look at the way Prophoto displaced Elinchrom by supplying sheer black housings and supple black cables matched to AD leather, boots and zippers.

Edmund

Rentals.

[bcooter]

edited

[Rob C]

isn't this supposed to be a professional forum?

Wherever did you get that idea?

This is a mixture of all sorts - a regular Bassetts.

Rob C

[bcooter]

edited

[feppe]

Maybe there is a need for a professional forum.  Maybe it could be called "working with cameras for a living".

Just a thought.

Maybe there's a need for a forum which avoids wild tangents, verbose off-topic rants, and misguided elitism. Maybe it could be called "on topic."

Just a thought.

[gdwhalen]

Notes from the battlefield.

It's a different world today.  Demands, numbers, volume and quality is all 100% further up stream that it was 2 years ago.

Everybody in every business is fighting, pushing, working day and night to keep moving forward.

There are exceptions to every rule and for some maybe the Leica or a sixty billion megapixel digital back makes sense, but everyone should keep in mind there is a lot of difference in shooting one editorial portrait, a personal project  vs. a commercial project of multiple set ups.

If i was shooting one person on white with a Mola Beauty dish, I'd shoot my p30 or p17 cause it's easy and after all I have 1200 watts to play with.

But shooting multiple set ups the world changes.

We are now into a massive studio shoot of 20 models a day, 20 set ups a day, three sets.

In ways it was perfect for medium format as I'm using a billion watts and I need a lot of dof and the framing of this gig is perfect for 645, (actually square would be even more perfect,  so during pre light we set up one medium format tethering station, one canon tethering station.

With client's staring into both monitors we pre lit and shot with both systems and the clients didn't blink at what was what, even zoomed in.  They just looked at the light, the content the speed and all liked the 1ds3 images and honestly I had a hard time telling any difference.

So with the plan to shoot both systems at the end of the first two days, (with many days remaining) the total count, Canon 4,000 something files, medium format 6 files.

Yea that's right 6 medium format so obviously the choice was made and it wasn't out of lack of desire, it is just too damn slow for what I'm shooting at the volume, the immediate feedback, the ability to use multipoint autofocus and because I have one AD that looks at first polaroid like it's final, with medium format I have to show the whole 24" image in all it's glory for me to really read the "polaroid" but with the Canon I can just unplug, set the lighting with the lcd and then tether up and show them what is closer to the look I want them to see.

Seems like a little thing but under this type of pressure, expense, deadlines, you don't have even 4 minutes to explain anything.

And this is not a low budget retail project, it's an international campaign, but the volume has quadrupled since last year, the time to shoot cut to 1/2 and the demands just as great as when you had one day for a set up instead of 24 minutes.

It's a project where 1 hour of overtime can cost $6,000 so it's not the cost of the camera that's the issue, it's the usability.

I would love for Leica or any medium format company to work with us during this week, then they would understand so many of the things we keep asking for, how important stability, reliability and usability is verses the claimed ultimate image quality.

I would love for them to see our pre production, 120 wardrobe changes, a three day casting, 7 estimate revises, people flying in from around the world and how exhausted everyone, crew and clients are  before we shoot the first few frames.

I would like for them to see the look on a clients face when you can catch that one bit of spontaneity using a camera that starts instantly, has a response time of milliseconds shooting  multiple models in a studio set and how when they see it on a 24" screen it's not the camera format that matters because on a 24" screen all camera formats are 24".

I think they would understand it's not the cost of the camera, it's the cost of production and the demands of the production.

I would like for the makers to see how easy eos utility and dpp is to learn.  From 4,000 files not one crash, few if any slowdowns and the previews are fast large and detailed..  It may not be the most full featured software, but it sure beats paying for a dedicated digital tech and at the end of this shoot, batching out 10,000 jpgs from raw for the web galleries.

I would like for them to see how easy and secure a usb contact is.  No special repeaters, no setting the camera for battery power, no powered hubs, just plug and play.  We're shooting gigs and gigs of data, but if it was medium format the files would be twice size and my storage expense on this would be double, tripe the costs.

I would like for them to feel the buzz kill of slow specialty cameras, the expressions around the room with medium format when the "dedicated"   digital tech says uh sorry, give me a few minutes to restart the computer and let's try cleaning those contacts on the lenses, the back and where's that new firewire cord?

I would like for them to understand that most clients do not see uber oversharped detail as pretty or a real plus.  The don't want to see a hard lit face with ever pimple or blemish bright red and glowing.

I would like for them to see the process of when we leave the studio at 7pm and the clients come to our place to drink wine and review the images.  Just drop the jpegs into any viewer and let it rip they can see everything on any computer, even their own and they laugh, they're happy and there is no one saying uh, well we have to go downstairs to the other computer station because it runs Leopard and the conference room computer only runs Tiger.  

I would like for them to see one other thing.  During this shoot, when we have a few seconds I really mean that when I say seconds, we put a model or two on one of the sets and shoot some video with the 5d2 and modeling lights.  The client didn't ask for this, didn't even know we were doing it and yesterday when they saw it they just flipped.  It was like they saw magic, because the ad agency, the marketing managers the vice president knows they can go back an show more than was expected.  

I would like for them to think just for one moment if they were me, what camera system would they buy next.  A $30,000 system with lenses to come, a $40,000 system with body, lenses grips to come, a camera that requires an extended warranty every few years,  only shoots stills and at the end of the day doesn't really do any more in ASA, speed, lens selection or lcd view than my current paid for medium format cameras,  or would they spend $7,000 for the next Canon or Nikon and think what happens in the worst case scenario?  If lightning strikes and all 4 of my Canons go down  I walk 24 ft. to the rental department and they hand me a 1ds3, or any Canon Lens I want, or I just call Samy's and they will deliver all the 5d2's I need in 30 minutes.

Let's get real.  If I or most professionals are going to spend $40,000 on anything it's either a new grip truck, a set of HMI's or Porsche for the wife.

Sure Leica is going to prance out some guy named Segio that  shoots a over retouched model on a white background and say see the detail of the new Leica S lenses, but is Sergio going to write the check in full?
 
So I doubt seriously if they are making the Leica for me, at least for the work that pays the bills, but I kind of wonder who they are making the Leica for?

I don't care if their market is trustafarians, AIG VP's with 44" waists and 18 year old trophy wifes that shoots sunsets in Cabo on a business retreat.    Maybe that's their market.

Maybe that Leica guy with the sweater on his shoulders knows.

Maybe it's him.


BC

And again, all photographers want a camera for what and how THEY shoot.  Can't build that.  Camera's, all of them have their pluses and minuses.  You shoot volume with good quality.  That is how YOU shoot.  Not how everyone shoots.  That's my one wish about this place.  People would understand that their way isn't the only way and leave some flexibility in their discussions and opinions with others.    

But congrats to you.  Nice to see you so busy.  I could never shoot that way.  Have no desire to shoot that way.  But whatever works for each individual is what should guide THEM on their purchases.  But leave room for the rest of us and understand that every job has a tool but no one tool can do every job.

[cyberean]

Let's get real.  If I or most professionals are going to spend $40,000 on anything it's either a new grip truck, a set of HMI's or Porsche for the wife.

can one still buy a $40K Porche?
that is so '90s ...

[gwhitf]

this conversation sure degenerated into a lot of nonsense.
anyone looking for serious info or thoughtful opinion on the S2, might think they were on Dpreview.

Actually, I think this thread is one of the more interesting. For once, thank God, we are discussing the use of a camera in the field, rather than MTF charts or pixel sizes or dynamic range in theory.

I think back to two cameras that just fit my hand SO well, when in actual use: my first Mamiya 6, and that old Hasselblad 503cx or ci, (can't remember), that had that awesome handgrip on the side. There was a third camera too, I think an old Linhof 4x5 Technika III that I owned and used for a long time. It had this awesome grip, maybe even made of wood. With all of these cameras, you just picked them up, and they said, "Let's hit the road, and get the hell out of here, and go take some pictures". You could shoot for days at a time, and the camera just fit in your hand so well.

I remember being at that Photo East thing one year, the year that the H1 came out, and me being a Hasselblad Butt Boy for years, I was anxious and concerned to see this new fancy model (that had the balls to abandon 6x6 format). I remember standing at that Hasselblad booth, and picking up the camera, and holding it to my eye, and simply feeling how it felt to shoot the camera. I remember just laying it back down, and shaking my head and walking away, thinking what a failure it was. That weird "bar of soap" handgrip. I'm not talking about the looks of the camera, I'm talking about how it felt to shoot it and how it felt in the hand, and projecting how it would feel to shoot it hard, all day long, on location, off a tripod. (I could care less about the grey color; a complete non-issue).

Maybe we have too many choices today. How in the world did the Hasselblad 500 series and the RZ keep so many working photographers so happy for so many years? I am talking DECADES of happiness.

As far as this thread drifting off-topic, well, Leica dug their own grave there. No mercy for them. They chose to pre-announce a camera, years in advance, in a marketplace that's changing by the month. And then they announce a ship date, and then delay it. Maybe they (and others) learn a lesson from that.