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Author Topic: Leica S2 Images  (Read 35809 times)

mark_au

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Leica S2 Images
« on: October 23, 2009, 03:57:28 AM »

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mcfoto

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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 04:04:44 AM »

Quote from: mark_au
Got this link from other forum

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leic...iew_samples.htm

Mark

Noise starts after iso 320 & that is the challenge with CCD chips.
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Denis Montalbetti
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stevesanacore

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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 04:10:43 AM »

Quote from: mcfoto
Noise starts after iso 320 & that is the challenge with CCD chips.


I just don't understand why these companies keep using CCD's? I guess that will be the next step in MF, whoever does it with CMOS is going to win this game.
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We don't know what we don't know.

georgl

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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 04:50:16 AM »

It's a "Nullserie"-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO. The M9 is usable up to 1000-1250ASA, the S2 will behave similar.

Full-frame CCDs are crucial for max. IQ
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tho_mas

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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 05:25:33 AM »

Quote from: georgl
It's a "Nullserie"-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO. The M9 is usable up to 1000-1250ASA, the S2 will behave similar.
EXIF shows capture date is two days ago.
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peterv

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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 05:29:59 AM »

I agree with Georg. This ISO test was perhaps a little premature. We'll have to wait and see what happens when the latest firmware is being used in this kind of test.
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peterv

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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 05:45:13 AM »

Quote from: tho_mas
EXIF shows capture date is two days ago.

Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.
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julius0377

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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2009, 05:50:34 AM »

Quote from: peterv
Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.
Threadjack: It was my understanding that ACR and Lightroom use the same raw processing engine. Is this not correct? (C1 of course is a different thing entirely not coming from Adobe.)
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tho_mas

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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2009, 06:01:58 AM »

Quote from: peterv
Ah, sorry, didn't notice that.
It might be a current firmware... but maybe not. We simply don't know.
As to ACR vs. LR it's the same engine. I don't know if LR provides smarter NR than ACR. The settings in the two full rez JPGs are set to zero for LumNR and ColNR.
The red chanel is clipped intensely... normal problem with ACR/LR...

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Christopher

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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 06:17:53 AM »

Quote from: tho_mas
It might be a current firmware... but maybe not. We simply don't know.
As to ACR vs. LR it's the same engine. I don't know if LR provides smarter NR than ACR. The settings in the two full rez JPGs are set to zero for LumNR and ColNR.
The red chanel is clipped intensely... normal problem with ACR/LR...


Well what you see there is what you get. Perhaps a little better. However there won't be a C1 conversion... there won't be C1 for any S2 owners. They can only hope for a very good Lightroom 3 support around spring next year until then they are stuck with L2 and that quality. Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did.

ThierryH

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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 06:57:13 AM »

Christopher,

With all my respect, I do not agree here: this image at ISO 640 is NOT good, if you meant to say that.

I have published a test taken by myself with the Sinarback eMotion 75 LV 1 1/2 years ago, shot at ISO 800. The difference is amazing, in respect to noise and general image quality, BUT also in respect of the light conditions (DR):

the file info taken at ISO 320 with the S2 shows that it was taken at f 13 at a 1/125th, which would mean that the ISO 640 image (provided that all being equal) was taken at f 13 / 1/250th, respectively about f 16 / 1/250th at ISO 800: that is a huge light difference of what I had shown and posted 1 1/2 years ago (see link below) in an image taken at f 5.6 / 1/40th at ISO 800, resp. f 16 / 1/10th at ISO 800). There is about 4 2/3 f-stop difference here, in terms of quantity of light available when the images were taken (4 2/3 less light for the image taken with the e75 33 MPx back).

here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ghlight=iso+800

Therefore I am not really impressed with the shown quality of these images taken with flash light, without wishing to speculate on the firmware of this S2 camera: the image quality at ISO 640, respectively even at ISO 320, is simply not good, in respect to noise.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Christopher
Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did.

georgl

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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 07:01:57 AM »

It's the same generation that was used by Mr. Reichmann and Mr. Farkas and they weren't allowed to go beyond ISO160.

ISO640 in this sample looks horrible, it's propably just ISO160 +2EV to simulate ISO640 due to the early firmware/hardware!? We should not expect any miracles, it's a 6m-CCD-system just with microlenses and therefore higher sensitivity (80-1250 instead of 50-800) and ISO800 is quite usable (and definitely not worse than 1600ASA with any CMOS-camera) with those backs (P40+/P65+/H3D-50).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 07:03:05 AM by georgl »
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michael

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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2009, 08:05:35 AM »

The S2 firmware is now final. There are cameras available for use at a studio in New York this week, and people are invited to come in, bring a CF card, take shots, and then take these home.

My recommendation is to use Adobe's LR3 Beta, which has a completely different processing engine that CR or Lr2.

Let's not confuse things with premature firmware and non-optimum processing.

I spoke with Leica at the NY show yesterday. Their biggest concern is being able to build enough of them, and that's why they have put the brakes on, so that they can reengineer their production line, and thus the delay of a couple of months.

Having seen the way that Leica builds things I can appreciate this issue, and though I'm as eager to test out a production S2 system as anyone, I'm waiting patiently. Building an entirely new camera and lens system from scratch is an incredible undertaking, and then also designing and building the manufacturing capability (this is not an OEM venture) is also a huge job.

Michael


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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2009, 08:09:46 AM »

Quote from: michael
The S2 firmware is now final. There are cameras available for use at a studio in New York this week, and people are invited to come in, bring a CF card, take shots, and then take these home.

Shouldn't that mean the NDA's have expired? One way or another we should see lots more samples posted soon.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2009, 09:31:35 AM »

Quote from: michael
My recommendation is to use Adobe's LR3 Beta, which has a completely different processing engine that CR or Lr2.

Let's not confuse things with premature firmware and non-optimum processing.

With all due respect, does anyone here think that, even if it's not final firmware, that the final usable ASA is going to change much, beyond these samples? In the end, aren't we talking about a $33,000 camera that will have a max usable ASA of probably 400 or 640?

I just wonder if we're bumping up against the end, with CCD, in terms of what will sell. This week, we're seeing the intro of the 1D4 Canon, with a marketed ASA of 102,000 (one hundred and two thousand). Say that out loud: One hundred and two thousand. Yes, it'll be noisy as hell, but can't you just imagine that, soon, that CMOS will render a clean ASA of probably 6400?

It just seems that CMOS keeps expanding, whereas CCD has been stuck in the mud for years.

I think what we're seeing here is is the split between guys that are willing to drag a tripod with them, EVERYwhere they go, versus guys that simply want to go out and shoot pictures, on foot, unencumbered. Carbon fiber or not, it's still dragging around a tripod. All you Lab Coat Guys, who want to examine noise at 200%, I just hope you're willing to carry a tripod with your precious CCD cameras.

I want to stick with MF as much as the next guy, but I'm seeing continued massive advances with Canon and Nikon, and yet, MF seems stuck with tiny, coarse LCDs, (never improved on), and CCDs that seem limited to ASA 400. And let's not even mention the whole video thing...

Imagine what that S2 is going to be worth, second-hand, in about two years, when technology keeps marching along, and the 1ds4 hits the streets. Who's willing to take a bath on that S2? (But I guess with their target market, we're talking about guys that could care less about taking a bath).

I'm just sitting there, shaking my head.
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narikin

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 10:09:39 AM »

I saw the S2 yesterday in the studio, and took test shots, though only at base ISO (160).
some quick thoughts:

pros:
- the 70mm standard lens is AMAZING - a very special piece of optics. in a completely different class to other MF standards, (maybe with the exception of the Zeiss 80mm for Sinar M) It's so good it shames every other camera/lens maker out there.
- camera body is very nice to handle. good size, good ergonomics.
- shutter is quiet, quieter than 1 series Canons or much quieter than other MF cameras. the weather proofing probably helps seal noise too
- AF worked well, not brilliantly, but well enough in good light. but is just single point.

cons:
- the lens is big, way bigger than it needs be, as it's built to take a central shutter, regardless of whether you want one or not. (plus is weather sealed plus has 8 elements). This rather defeats the compact MF nature of the design, and for every promo image of how small the S2 body is compared to a dSLR, reviewers need to show one of how huge the standard is compared to other MF standards.
- the tether firmware kept crashing. yes its just beta at present, but as we are 12 weeks from launch, its not encouraging.
- Moire was clearly present in some images (same as it would be with any other MF digital, just dont believe Leica have magically solved Moire - they haven't)
- no C1 conversions. Just Lightroom, which is not the same quality, imho. you may prefer Lightroom though.
- single point AF

I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 10:29:48 AM by narikin »
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gwhitf

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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 10:30:32 AM »

Quote from: narikin
This rather defeats the compact MF nature of the design, and for every promo image of how small the S2 body is compared to a dSLR, reviewers need to show one of how huge the standard is compared to other MF standards.

They should be legally required to also design The Leica S2 Tripod as well, and they should be required to show the tripod whenever they show the camera. (Imagine the price tag of a carbon fiber Leica tripod). (And imagine the look on Hans'/Lars' face when they realize they'd got to carry a tripod, and risk getting a wrinkle in the shoulder area of that starched shirt. But at least the sweater tied around their shoulders will comfort the weight of the tripod).

Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 11:24:33 AM by gwhitf »
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narikin

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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 10:36:21 AM »

Quote from: gwhitf
Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
it really is a good camera for handheld - much more than other MF's.
would have like the standard to be f2.0 rather than f2.5, but still, this is one MF camera that does not need a tripod in normal daylight light.
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jschone

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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 10:43:50 AM »

Try lightroom 3 beta, you will be amazed how usable high iso shots become from ccd sensors. I am now going back through a whole series of photos taken with the Leica M8 on iso 2500 which I thought were not upto print quality. Lightroom 3 Beta has radically changed my position towards these images. Already the bar is raised very high with this Beta release , let's see what is going to happen when Lightroom 3 final comes out, I expect a small revolution in RAW processing.

Jochem


Quote from: gwhitf
They should be legally required to also design The Leica S2 Tripod as well, and they should be required to show the tripod whenever they show the camera. (Imagine the price tag of a carbon fiber Leica tripod).

Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.
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