Hasselblad 60MP back - full frame sensor?

[DolphinDan]

Hi all,

I apologize for asking such a silly question, but I am curious and unable so far to find an answer: does the new Hasselblad 60MP back have a full frame sensor or not?  Considering how PhaseOne talked quite a bit about how the P65+ has a full frame sensor, I find it puzzling that Hasselblad would not be making similar announcements for their new sensor...

Namaste
Daniel

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi all,

I apologize for asking such a silly question, but I am curious and unable so far to find an answer: does the new Hasselblad 60MP back have a full frame sensor or not?  Considering how PhaseOne talked quite a bit about how the P65+ has a full frame sensor, I find it puzzling that Hasselblad would not be making similar announcements for their new sensor...

Namaste
Daniel

I have never seen a more loaded question....  

Fire away!


Steve Hendrix

[BJL]

"It's the exact same sensor". You decide what to call it. I vote for "54x40mm."

[Dick Roadnight]

Hi all,

I apologize for asking such a silly question, but I am curious and unable so far to find an answer: does the new Hasselblad 60MP back have a full frame sensor or not?  Considering how PhaseOne talked quite a bit about how the P65+ has a full frame sensor, I find it puzzling that Hasselblad would not be making similar announcements for their new sensor...

Namaste
Daniel

"Full Frame" to most people means 24*36 mm or full frame 35mm, but 35 mm was the total width of the film, including the perforations for cine sprockets.

Hasselblad claimed, at the original announcement, that their 60Mpx sensor is 94% full frame, implying 94% of full-frame 6 * 4.5 mm nominal size, whatever that is...

I think Phase and Hasselblad use the same Dalsa sensor...

Hasselblad:

Sensor size                            60.1 Mpixels (6708×8956 pixels)
Sensor dimensions                  40.2×53.7 mm
Pixel size                               6.0 μm

Phase:
Imaging technology
CCD: Full frame CCD
Lens Factor: Full frame / 1.0
Resolution:                            60.5 mega pixels
Active pixels:                         8984 x 6732  
CCD size effective:                 53.9 mm x 40.4 mm
Pixel size:                             6 x 6 micron

So there are very small differences in the quoted sizes.

One question is ¿does it make any significant difference?  ...It just so happens that with an Epson 24" printer they are both just big enough to enable you to print a 24" print across 24" paper at the default preferred res of 360 pixels per inch, at 360 original camera pixels per print inch, without scaling, distortion...

[gss]

"I vote for "54x40mm."

54 40 or fight!

[bradleygibson]

"Full Frame" for 645 means something different than it does for 35mm...  Brand marketing aside, the "6x_" formats are generally considered to be 56mm on the "6" side, and various dimensions on the other.

6x4.5: 56 x 41.5mm (56x42mm gives exactly 4:3)
6x6: 56 x 56mm (sometimes 54 x 54mm further back in the past)
...
6x17: 56 x 168mm

Phase says their P65+ chip is 53.9 x 40.4mm or 93.7% of 645 full frame (by area).  (You'll have to decide for yourself whether 94% = 100% (or "full frame"), regardless of Phase's marketing claims.)

Hasselblad's sensor is supposed to be this same size.

HTH,
-Brad

[Dick Roadnight]

Hasselblad's sensor is supposed to be this same size.

-Brad

According to the Hasselblad data sheet it is not.

[BJL]

Hasselblad:

Sensor size                            60.1 Mpixels (6708×8956 pixels)
Sensor dimensions                  40.2×53.7 mm
Pixel size                               6.0 μm

Phase:
Resolution:                            60.5 mega pixels
Active pixels:                         8984 x 6732  
CCD size effective:                 53.9 mm x 40.4 mm
Pixel size:                             6 x 6 micron

So there are very small differences in the quoted sizes.

These small differences commonly arise with the same sensor due to the different processing used: more or less lines around the edge used for JPEG conversion of the pixels at the edge of the JPEG output, different usage of lines beyond the edge of the image for dark current measurement, including some lines that are ignored for screening between output pixels and the ones used to measure dark current ... and so on and so forth. There are also at least three ways of counting photosites, "total", "active", and "effective", and different companies do not seem to use even the name quite consistently.

This is another part of the digital curse: reading and debating small differences in numbers with no clear idea as to how significant the differences are, if at all.


In particular, I doubt any one will claim that the "larger" Phase One sensor is "645 FF" while the "smaller" Hasselblad sensor is not!

[Ed Jack]

 The new "Full frame" 60MP Haselblad... which can't use Hasselblad's two best lenses, the HCD 28mm and hte new HCD 45-90mm Zoom, which is a modern day classic. I've urged them to produce a nonj-locked HC version of these lenses, such that hte vignetting on the 28 can be corrected and the zoom probably has a big enough IC ?

Genius... pure Genius

[Nick-T]

The new "Full frame" 60MP Haselblad... which can't use Hasselblad's two best lenses

Love it when people post things on forums that are just plain wrong.

Both lenses will work with the new sensor. The zoom will induce a very slight (automatic crop) at the widest end ONLY and the 28 possibly be the same.

Nick-T

[Dick Roadnight]

(Ed Jack @ Oct 23 2009, 04:40 AM)
The new "Full frame" 60MP Haselblad... which can't use Hasselblad's two best lenses

Love it when people post things on forums that are just plain wrong.

Both lenses will work with the new sensor. The zoom will induce a very slight (automatic crop) at the widest end ONLY and the 28 possibly be the same.

Nick-T

When real customers are thinking about spending real money on a very expensive lens for a very expensive camera, what is "just plain wrong" about wanting enough image circle to cover the sensor?

Do you expect us to buy a wide angle zoom and be happy that it does not work (without vignetting) at the widest setting?

...this is not like thinking about spending £200 on an old lens on eBay!

[BJL]

The new "Full frame" 60MP Haselblad... which can't use Hasselblad's two best lenses, the HCD 28mm and hte new HCD 45-90mm Zoom

This is a bit like Canon and Nikon offering "full frame" DSLRs that cannot use dozens of EF-S and DX lenses: serving different customers with different products.

Hasselblad still offers backs that are fully compatible with those two lenses, so how on earth is it a bad move to also offer a back that gets more out of the great majority of Hasselbad lenses that are designed for 56x42mm format?

Adding options while removing none sounds like progress to me.

[Ed Jack]

Love it when people post things on forums that are just plain wrong.

Both lenses will work with the new sensor. The zoom will induce a very slight (automatic crop) at the widest end ONLY and the 28 possibly be the same.

Nick-T

 Well before you shout me down, I didn't know that - so the post was useful, wasn't it ?
To be fair to me, I didn't expect Hasselblad to address the issue in this way (brushed it under the carpet AFAIK tell), tell me the HCD lens can now also be used with a H1-H3 and a third party back, I am sure users of thse backs want to use these lens and are capable of removing Vignetting post processing and maybe do a crop - I mean they're not idiots are they ?

[Nick-T]

Well before you shout me down, I didn't know that - so the post was useful, wasn't it ?
To be fair to me, I didn't expect Hasselblad to address the issue in this way (brushed it under the carpet AFAIK tell), tell me the HCD lens can now also be used with a H1-H3 and a third party back, I am sure users of thse backs want to use these lens and are capable of removing Vignetting post processing and maybe do a crop - I mean they're not idiots are they ?

I didn't SHOUT you down. I simply pointed out that you were posting inaccurate information.

And DICK I didn't say there was anything wrong with wanting anything.. I was simply pointing out the facts.
Nick-T

[aaanorton]

I apologize for asking such a silly question, but I am curious and unable so far to find an answer: does the new Hasselblad 60MP back have a full frame sensor or not?

Full frame is simply however big Hasselblad decides to make their viewfinders able to see, of course. Except in this case, which is actually fuller frame.

[!--quoteo(post=319073:date=:name=BJL)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (BJL) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=319073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]This is a bit like Canon and Nikon offering "full frame" DSLRs that cannot use dozens of EF-S and DX lenses: serving different customers with different products.

Hasselblad still offers backs that are fully compatible with those two lenses, so how on earth is it a bad move to also offer a back that gets more out of the great majority of Hasselbad lenses that are designed for 56x42mm format?

Adding options while removing none sounds like progress to me.[/quote]

Now that's funny.

[bradleygibson]

According to the Hasselblad data sheet it is not.

Quite right, Dick.  I stand corrected.  As pointed out in an above post, the Hasselblad specs indicate their sensor is 0.2mm smaller than the Phase both in x and y.

[ziocan]

Love it when people post things on forums that are just plain wrong.

Both lenses will work with the new sensor. The zoom will induce a very slight (automatic crop) at the widest end ONLY and the 28 possibly be the same.

Nick-T

They sort of work, thought.
Sort of.