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Author Topic: G11 or S90 anyone?  (Read 14584 times)

soboyle

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« on: October 21, 2009, 11:14:39 am »

Has anyone started shooting with either of these cameras yet? Thoughts on IQ compaired to G10?
Do they approach the IQ of the newer more expensive 4/3rds bodies by olympus and panasonic?

kirktuck

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 11:17:25 am »

Quote from: soboyle
Has anyone started shooting with either of these cameras yet? Thoughts on IQ compaired to G10?
Do they approach the IQ of the newer more expensive 4/3rds bodies by olympus and panasonic?


I've been using one for about a week and a half.  Here's my review (with tons of appended commentary.....):

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2009/...nal-camera.html

Suffice to say I love my G11.
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pcunite

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 12:43:39 pm »

Quote from: kirktuck
I've been using one for about a week and a half.  Here's my review (with tons of appended commentary.....):

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2009/...nal-camera.html

Suffice to say I love my G11.

Kirk,
Thank you for doing this. Please just keep hammering away at this! I refuse to pay $40,000 for a camera system! If the G11 is truly up to the task I could use it for some of my contrived work as it is all tripod, wide DOF, flash sync portraits and the output is never really printed that large.

Just for conversation... I don't see the body size of DSLRs coming down much in the near future. Holding them for an 8 hour wedding is just more comfortable and stable with it up to your eye. If you need a powerful flash attached then the size of the body is again very good for that purpose. Large knobs for making quick changes also have their place. Anyway, good to know that tech improvements may allow for really lightweight systems in the future.
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Wayne Fox

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 06:06:50 pm »

Quote from: soboyle
Has anyone started shooting with either of these cameras yet? Thoughts on IQ compaired to G10?
Do they approach the IQ of the newer more expensive 4/3rds bodies by olympus and panasonic?

I actually just moved to the new GF1 as my carry around camera because I don't like the nearly infinite DoF of my G10, which of course the G11 won't change.

The image quality is pretty remarkable.  I"m sure the G11 will be great (the G10 was no slouch), and the GF1 is certainly not the compact option of the G11, but I'm really delighted with the change.  At ISO 400 the GF1 definitely outshines the G10 ... I assume the G11 improves on that but not sure how much.  The 20mm/f1.7 in low light is a remarkable lens, and the zooms are nice and small but sharp and easy to use.

Here's a sample at ISO 400 , note the focus fall off which would have been much less pronounced with my G10. The 100% detail is with a slight amount of noise reduction in LR and LR capture sharpening, no output sharpening.

[attachment=17400:RedLeave...1_600web.jpg][attachment=17401:LeafDeta...1_400web.
jpg]
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JeffKohn

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 10:50:01 pm »

I just got an S90, but I haven't had much chance to play around with it yet. I wanted something truly pocketable, otherwise I don't see much point in a P&S for me. That ruled out any of the micro-4/3 cameras. I also wanted full manual controls and RAW capability if possible. The S90 fit the bill. My initial impression is that the controls are pretty decent for such a small camera. I can't get over just how small it is, not much larger than my cell phone really. I can't say much about image quality at this point, as all I've done is a few snaps around the house.
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Jeff Kohn
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markhout

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 02:39:54 pm »

I have had the S90 for two weeks now. Coming from the G10, this one is truly pocketable (even jacket-portable), which is a major relief. It will let me shoot images where I previously did not carry a P&S and had to resort to my cellphone (nothing bad about that though).

NR is good, WB also. Manual intervention is great (I have expoure correction on the lens ring). I am using Aperture priority and the small menu ring on the back only needs a very little touch to change the aperture, which I think is a downside.

The first time I imported the RAWs in LR I was disappointed with the wide angle distortion, color and sharpness. I made a profile with color passport, which helped, but not for the distortion. For that you must use the DPP software that came with the camera. I do hope that LR at some point soon can deal with the distortion, but am not holding my breath. The G10 was fine in LR, so there's another downside.

Otherwise I am still working on the transition from the G10 - I have the impression that the S90 images are a bit mushy compared to the G10 and I will see over the next few weeks how to deal with that in post.

Mark
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Wayne Fox

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 11:27:39 pm »

I played with a G11 and an S90 today.  Both seem like good choices depending on what purpose you have in mind.  The G11 articulating LCD is really sweet.   I'm shooting noise tests to compare ISO performance of the Canon s90, G10, G11, 7D, and Lumix GF1 next week.  Will be interesting.

The GF1 is substantially better than a G10 even at ISO 400, but I'm guessing the G11 is as well.  It will be fun to see how they perform.

To me the GF1 is almost more like a backup system ... I wish I would have had the full system including 45-200mm lens in Italy because both my Canon 70-200 2.8 and 70-300 DO had problems.  the G10 wasn't good enough to shoot instead, the GF1 system might have been.

But after seeing the s90 ... hmmm.  need to see the image quality.  Sure will fit in a shirt pocket though ... might need to grab one of those as well
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soboyle

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 03:53:56 pm »

For what its worth, I picked up a G11, and am sending it back.
There just wasn't enough of an image quality increase over my G10 at higher iso's. Yes they are a bit better, but not what I was hoping for. The GF-1 is looking like a better choice. I was hoping the G11 would be the poor mans GF-1, but that isn't happening.
To be honest, the image quality I get from my 5D 2 is so good, I've just been carrying that with a fast prime attached, and getting superb low light shots.  It's not that heavy and bulky. This "I have to have a smaller camera", with all the compromises and expense involved, is getting a bit overdone.

Misirlou

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 05:57:03 pm »

I still carry my antediluvian S50 at times, and I still use it for shooting panoramas for QTVR (which Apple killed in the last QuickTime). It's so heavily used that the mode icons on the control dial are completely worn off. So I've been really looking forward to the S90. I'll wait though until there's a lens correction for it in PTlens. That would solve the workflow issue as far as lens corrections, at least for me. Now if we could just get DxO to build a module for it...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:57:59 pm by Misirlou »
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atstreetlevel

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009, 03:25:54 pm »

I have a G11 which I use mostly for my Toronto street photography blog when a DSLR wouldn't work out well for all the usual reasons. With careful post-processing (DPP is still painful so I do most of work in Photoshop; PTLens is used for lens corrections) the IQ is pretty decent. The camera does have, however, some annoying quirks.

The most serious of them, for me, is the fact that closing the LCD panel takes the camera out of the Manual Focus mode. At first I thought this was a weird bug, but after contacting Canon support it turned out it was a "feature". Why is this really annoying? For street photography I often put the camera on MF, prefocus it (often to the hyperfocal distance) to reduce the shutter lag when shooting and then I want to close the LCD panel (to save it from brushing against my coat, to save power and to make it less obvious). Well, the moment you close the panel it's bye-bye MF. The camera reverts to autofocus (and a G11 is not as flexible as a DSLR, you have face detection or center - for the time you have to capture a changing scene it's hit-or-miss). Apparently, Canon's thinking was with the LCD closed one cannot focus manually so it disabled MF.

I consider this a major design flaw. Focus, aperture and exposure time are the fundamental parameters of the image-taking process (which we call photography :-). The position of the LCD panel is not by far, yet Canon allowed the latter to affect the former (and rather assertively in fact, you cannot disable this behaviour). I'm not sure how this plays with the segment of photographers towards which the camera is often touted: photojournalists, often in "hostile environments" to quote from the press release.

If you don't do street photography or otherwise need to use manual focus with a closed LCD, you may not care about this. I wanted to point it out, though, because this behaviour is not obvious at all.

Razvan,
http://atstreetlevel.com
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Wayne Fox

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 12:53:27 am »

Personally after trying out an s90 and a G11 for a couple of hours,  coupled with being an extremely delighted Lumix GF1 user (so I'm a little biased) , I think the G11 is the odd man out.
 
I think Michael's article was spot on, and with the emergence of this new category of cameras as well as the introduction of  the delightfully small s90, the G11 seems like a category without a home.

If you are looking for a small size the s90 gets you nearly everything a G11 does in a camera that fits in your shirt pocket.  The G11 won't get you significant image quality gains, just a couple of nice user features.  If the s90 is not good enough, doubtful the G11 will be either.
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thierrylegros396

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 05:13:34 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Personally after trying out an s90 and a G11 for a couple of hours,  coupled with being an extremely delighted Lumix GF1 user (so I'm a little biased) , I think the G11 is the odd man out.
 
I think Michael's article was spot on, and with the emergence of this new category of cameras as well as the introduction of  the delightfully small s90, the G11 seems like a category without a home.

If you are looking for a small size the s90 gets you nearly everything a G11 does in a camera that fits in your shirt pocket.  The G11 won't get you significant image quality gains, just a couple of nice user features.  If the s90 is not good enough, doubtful the G11 will be either.

S90 has no ND filter, is limited to 1/1600s shutter speed, and battery life of 220 shots !
G11 has ND filter, 1/4000s shutter speed, and battery life of 390 shots.
So choose the one you like !

Have a nice day.

Thierry
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Wayne Fox

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 12:50:37 pm »

Quote from: thierrylegros396
S90 has no ND filter, is limited to 1/1600s shutter speed, and battery life of 220 shots !
G11 has ND filter, 1/4000s shutter speed, and battery life of 390 shots.
So choose the one you like !

Have a nice day.

Thierry


To quote myself "The G11 won't get you significant image quality gains, just a couple of nice user features"

I didn't itemize any of those features ... you mention a few.  It also gets you an articulating screen, a couple of easier to use manual controls, and a handful of other nice features.

So if any of those are important to a buyer and  the substantially larger size is not a problem, great.

Personally the s90 matches in my mind what is the most important feature, image quality, and none of these features are compelling enough to me to warrant the difference in the size of the camera ... after all that's why I'm buying a "pocket" camera.
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JeffKohn

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 02:54:29 pm »

That sums it up for me, as well. If I'm going to carry something that won't fit in my pocket it might as well be my regular DSLR. While there are a few advantages to the G11, they're not important enough to warrant the extra size for me. I have no desire or need for an in-between camera that's smallish but not pocketable. The S90 fits the bill nicely for a carry everywhere camera with decent image quality, manual controls, and raw. No doubt the micro-4/3 cameras have better image quality, it's just not a form-factor that interests me.
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Jeff Kohn
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soboyle

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 03:33:10 pm »

I'm going to skip this generation since I have a G10, and wasn't impressed with the G11. Not only is the image quality only marginally better, but the camera ergonomics suffered, and so did apparent build quality and materials. My guess is that Canon is not going to let the large sensor/small camera market slip by, they likely have designs in the works, the next year should be interesting in this area.

Wayne Fox

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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2009, 04:34:02 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
That sums it up for me, as well. If I'm going to carry something that won't fit in my pocket it might as well be my regular DSLR. While there are a few advantages to the G11, they're not important enough to warrant the extra size for me. I have no desire or need for an in-between camera that's smallish but not pocketable. The S90 fits the bill nicely for a carry everywhere camera with decent image quality, manual controls, and raw. No doubt the micro-4/3 cameras have better image quality, it's just not a form-factor that interests me.


well, despite being totally delighted with my GF1 system I couldn't resist the amazing small size of the s90 and what it delivered ...

Just what i needed, another camera ...
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250swb

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 06:21:05 pm »

Quote from: soboyle
Has anyone started shooting with either of these cameras yet? Thoughts on IQ compaired to G10?
Do they approach the IQ of the newer more expensive 4/3rds bodies by olympus and panasonic?

OK I haven't used a G11, but my G10 doesn't even get close to the IQ of m4/3 cameras, so I can't see a vast upgrade in the G11.

Lets be realistic, its not just the sensor, and the m4/3 is much bigger than a P&S sensor (and has a higher resolution than the Nikon D3), but the lenses are superior by a long way (but the Canon lens ain't bad on the G10), but the speed of the camera is better, like shutter lag, writing to card etc. Its not a contest. The Panasonic GF1 wipes the floor with high end P&S cameras and ultimately in the future the larger senor/small package will replace 'bridge' cameras and high end P&S completely. Add to that the ability to use a vast array of other manufacturers lenses on the m4/3 body and I won't be buying a Canon Gwhatever ever again.

Steve

BernardLanguillier

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 05:11:31 pm »

Quote from: 250swb
The Panasonic GF1 wipes the floor with high end P&S cameras and ultimately in the future the larger senor/small package will replace 'bridge' cameras and high end P&S completely. Add to that the ability to use a vast array of other manufacturers lenses on the m4/3 body and I won't be buying a Canon Gwhatever ever again.

I don't think so.

Looking at this from an image quality standpoint, 4/3 is currently replacing APS DSLRs, who themselves are replacing FF...

The next step is compacts replacing 4/3.

There is no avoiding the reality that smaller sensors will soon be good enough for most applications. A G10 is already as good or better than 35 mm film in terms of detail/noise up to ISO800 and the Fujis are even better.

One major aspect though is that I don't believe that cameras equiped with such high quality small sensors will be coming from companies also selling intercheangeable lenses bodies because the business model of compact cameras is a lot less interesting in that they don't keep the customer captive.

My personnal bet is that we will very soon see some Taiwan based start ups design and sell compacts with new sensors and Zeiss/schneider lenses... they have the technology, the manufacturing facilities and the entrepreneurship it takes to do this in one year or two. Japanese will of course quickly react.
 
Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 07:10:31 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Paulo Bizarro

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 04:22:43 am »

This is all very well, but something like a GF-1 or EP-1 costs double the price of a G11 or S90. Plus, once you fit those cameras with a zoom lens that gives it a similar range to the lens on the G11 or S90, it does not seem that small any more does it? In my mind, a GF-1 or EP-1 with the pancake lens, is not that much smaller than a small DSLR with a 24 , 28, or 35mm prime lens. These micro 4/3 cameras are nice developments, but for many photographers, something like a G11, or LX3, or S90, or GRD, have good enough quality and features, at much less cost.

As somebody else already mentioned above, carrying a DSLR with a prime lens is actually not that dificult, is it? I can carry my 5D MKII (with grip) plus a 50mm lens in a shoulder bag, no problem. To each its own, and it is wonderful to have so many choices!

BernardLanguillier

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G11 or S90 anyone?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 05:20:05 pm »

Quote from: pbizarro
This is all very well, but something like a GF-1 or EP-1 costs double the price of a G11 or S90.

Not in Japan...

- GF1 + 14-45: 56.000 Yen,
- G11: 44.000 Yen.

Cheers,
Bernard

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