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Author Topic: MAMIYA DM22 & DM28  (Read 15054 times)

david o

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« on: October 20, 2009, 06:32:16 pm »

New Mam

Not really new and is it only from Mac... anyhow worth a look
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RobertJ

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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2009, 09:28:25 pm »

I believe the DM33 and DM56 are also coming, but those will be with the DF body and capable of 1/1600th flash sync with the leaf shutter lenses...
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SeanBK

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 10:40:42 am »

OMG!! This can't be good for everybody as it is a "CLOSED SYSTEM" !!!
     Where art thou, y'all Hasselblad bashers??  
 Though me like the price  . This IS the true advantage of Hasselblad's vision of things to come. So by end of the year Hassey will drop it's price of their line too? Let's keep the fingers crossed.
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Alex MacPherson

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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 10:56:30 am »

Quote from: SeanBK
OMG!! This can't be good for everybody as it is a "CLOSED SYSTEM" !!!
     Where art thou, y'all Hasselblad bashers??  
 Though me like the price  . This IS the true advantage of Hasselblad's vision of things to come. So by end of the year Hassey will drop it's price of their line too? Let's keep the fingers crossed.

Closed system? These are modular. It says in the description that the backs come off and can be used with the RZ with an adapter.
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kirktuck

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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 11:11:31 am »

while I think that the majority of jobs we encounter are handled just fine with 35mm style cameras I do miss the days of bigger sensors/longer lens portrait work.  It does have a different feel.  I don't really care about the pixel count.  It could have been 6 or 10 or 16 and I'd be happy.  But at this price point it would be nice to add to the toolkit.
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John_Black

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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 01:50:31 pm »

While the price is nice, the base ISO on the 22 MP back is ISO 25.  Assuming this is the same sensor and same level of performance as the Leaf Aptus-22, then ISO 25 is difficult to work with.  Shooting outdoors handheld is unlikely due very low shutter speeds.  In the studio it translates into higher output lights.  For some people ISO 25 will be fine, but for those who are accustom to their dSLR which has a base ISO of 100 or 200, transitioning to ISO 25 can be a shock to the system.
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Justin Berman

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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 06:06:38 pm »

Quote from: John_Black
While the price is nice, the base ISO on the 22 MP back is ISO 25.  Assuming this is the same sensor and same level of performance as the Leaf Aptus-22, then ISO 25 is difficult to work with.  Shooting outdoors handheld is unlikely due very low shutter speeds.  In the studio it translates into higher output lights.  For some people ISO 25 will be fine, but for those who are accustom to their dSLR which has a base ISO of 100 or 200, transitioning to ISO 25 can be a shock to the system.

That os an interesting perspective, I actually think of ISO 25 as a real benefit (as a studio shooter). I can get some truly awesome thin DoF shots with my lights on, something I just cannot do with a minimum ISO of 100. I wish I had this option on my Nikons.  As far as landscape work, I do a lot of long exposure, so to me this will make it easier to get long exposures during the day. Perhaps I am nuts... WHO KNOWS!
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Snook

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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 06:59:23 pm »

I just got this e-mail:

Elmsford, NY – October 21, 2009 – Mamiya has partnered with industry leaders Schneider, Phase One and Leaf to produce the best of all worlds — the new Mamiya DM56 professional digital camera.

also a 56 mega pixel camera

Snook
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RobertJ

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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 08:38:25 pm »

Quote from: SeanBK
OMG!! This can't be good for everybody as it is a "CLOSED SYSTEM" !!!
     Where art thou, y'all Hasselblad bashers??  
 Though me like the price  . This IS the true advantage of Hasselblad's vision of things to come. So by end of the year Hassey will drop it's price of their line too? Let's keep the fingers crossed.

Hold your horses.  These are not closed systems.  They are Leaf/Mamiya mount backs with a Mamiya body.  You can use any back on the Mamiya body that you desire.

Looks like the DM22 and DM28 use the AFDIII body, and the DM33 and DM56 come with the new DF body.  http://www.mamiya.com/dm56-and-dm33.html
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stevesanacore

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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 10:53:55 am »

Quote from: T-1000
Hold your horses.  These are not closed systems.  They are Leaf/Mamiya mount backs with a Mamiya body.  You can use any back on the Mamiya body that you desire.

Looks like the DM22 and DM28 use the AFDIII body, and the DM33 and DM56 come with the new DF body.  http://www.mamiya.com/dm56-and-dm33.html


I assume these are Leaf backs branded Mamiya? Is this the latest Mamiya body also? In other words, is it the same as the Phase branded body? This is a very interesting price point that MF has now reached. The flood gates could open for MFDBs if more camera kits breach the $10K deck.
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bcooter

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2009, 11:15:32 am »

Quote from: T-1000
Hold your horses.  These are not closed systems.  They are Leaf/Mamiya mount backs with a Mamiya body.  You can use any back on the Mamiya body that you desire.

Looks like the DM22 and DM28 use the AFDIII body, and the DM33 and DM56 come with the new DF body.  http://www.mamiya.com/dm56-and-dm33.html

What closes all of these systems, is the specified camera mount and the software.

Even "open" systems like Phase can't seem to decide how "open" they want to be.  Buy a phase back with a Mamiya mount and it only mounts on Mamiya cameras, expect for some technical cameras.

It doesn't mount on a Hasselblad, A contax, a Bronica, a Fuji unless you spend a bunch of bucks getting the mount changed and then you can't switch back without spend a bunch of bucks again, or buying some chinese adapter with various cables.

Same with software, can't run a Hasselblad file in C-1, can't even process  a Leaf file in C-1 unless you spend the $2,000 upgrade and then it doesn't tether, yet, with availability tbd which is strange because you can tether a Canon camera to Phase software and Phase owns Leaf, but not canon.

Go figure that one out.

There may be a slightly different look between an Aptus to a Phase a Dalsa to a Kodak sensor, but not that much, not when you go to post work and honestly the tests I've done and seen from others, especailly retouchers in final nobody knows the difference.

It's not like the film days with AGFA in a Fuji 600 series looked a lot different than Kodak NC100 in a Hasselblad.  

I find all of this restrictive and confusing, and the only way to understand what you are actually buying is to study and read the very fine print.  What is a Mamiya 22, vs. a Mamiya ZD2, Vs a Mamiya ZD.  Two use Dalsa chips one uses a Phase, back one a Mamiya back, one a Leaf back, all "branded" by Mamiya, one tethers in C-1, one in LC11 one in ZD software to lightroom  and even for professionals that work day in and day out, they don't know the difference or for that matter care.

Then the naming, an Aptus 22 is 22mpx,  Aptus 54s is 22mpx, a Leaf Aptus 5 is the same 22mpx a P40 + 31 mpx.  Who keeps thinking this stuff up?

As far as open camera systems that means little as medium format cameras are cheap compared to the backs.  Who is ever going to worry about their Mamiya Camera taking a different makers back when the camera costs 4 or 5 grand, the back cost $40,000?

The camera and back makers can go back and forth all day long proclaiming their advantage or dissing the other guy, but in reality they all buy their digital films from Dalsamart and Kodakmart and with the Phase/Leaf/Mamiya company have so many variations of the same theme even most dealers can't keep up.

The only thing that keeps digital backs proprietary is their software and their camera mount.  Those are decisions  made by the camera makers, not a photographer because no photographer would buy a film that only worked in one camera and one lab and no photographer would name a film with three separate names.  Yes I know most digital files work in lightroom or Camera Raw but they look a lot different out of the can in those softwares, than the makers software/processing suite.

I know Medium format wants to sell product but they make the buying process complicated, even more the using process.  I wouldn't buy a Leaf/Mamiya branded product without the dealer, the maker and my lawyer all signing a document stating who warranties what, what software can I use and what is the exact costs of warranties, software and "warranty upgrades", lens deliveries including turn around times.

I'd probably want it signed in blood.

BC
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pcunite

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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2009, 02:25:21 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
I find all of this restrictive and confusing, and the only way to understand what you are actually buying is to study and read the very fine print.  What is a Mamiya 22, vs. a Mamiya ZD2, Vs a Mamiya ZD.  Two use Dalsa chips one uses a Phase, back one a Mamiya back, one a Leaf back, all "branded" by Mamiya, one tethers in C-1, one in LC11 one in ZD software to lightroom  and even for professionals that work day in and day out, they don't know the difference or for that matter care.

... SKIP ...

Then the naming, an Aptus 22 is 22mpx,  Aptus 54s is 22mpx, a Leaf Aptus 5 is the same 22mpx a P40 + 31 mpx.  Who keeps thinking this stuff up?

... SKIP ...

I know Medium format wants to sell product but they make the buying process complicated, even more the using process.  I wouldn't buy a Leaf/Mamiya branded product without the dealer, the maker and my lawyer all signing a document stating who warranties what, what software can I use and what is the exact costs of warranties, software and "warranty upgrades", lens deliveries including turn around times.

I agree MFD is now within my price range at $10,000 but guess what? These $10K MFD systems all have a base ISO of 25!!! Good grief! What snake oil salesman. Talk about a shock to the system when I bump these things up to ISO 200 just to keep from buying 1200ws lights. What does ISO 100 even look like? Sorry MFD, go back to the drawing board and price a system low like you have done but also useable in real shooting situations (at least mine!)

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BJL

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 03:12:28 pm »

Quote from: stevesanacore
This is a very interesting price point that MF has now reached. The flood gates could open for MFDBs if more camera kits breach the $10K deck.
This price is not part of any overall trend: it is a special case, dependent on using an utterly ancient, noisy, low sensitivity CCD from 2004 (the by-gone era of the Nikon D2X, Canon 1Ds MkII, Olympus E-300, Konica-Minolta 7D, etc.). Quite possibly because Mamiya has an overstock of those sensors from a widely rumored volume purchase for its unsuccessful ZD project, and once Leaf and Mamiya became partners through Phase One, the opportunity arose to dispose of them and recoup a part of the price Mamiya paid for them.

For a more realistic price trend indication, look at the $20,000 Mamiya DL33. It uses a newer generation sensor of the same size, and so similar production cost. And even that sensor is one generation old, and so gets some "senior discount" compared to new sensor model pricing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 03:17:00 pm by BJL »
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RobertJ

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2009, 09:48:29 pm »

Quote from: stevesanacore
I assume these are Leaf backs branded Mamiya? Is this the latest Mamiya body also? In other words, is it the same as the Phase branded body? This is a very interesting price point that MF has now reached. The flood gates could open for MFDBs if more camera kits breach the $10K deck.

Nope, they're not branded Mamiya backs, they're just Leaf backs that come with either a Mamiya AFDIII or a Mamiya DF body.

Leaf and Mamiya have been selling Leaf/Mamiya packages for years, WAY before Mamiya started working with Phase, and Leaf was "acquired" by Phase One.  This is ancient news.  I have a brochure from years ago that is pimping the old school Mamiya AFD body and the 24x36mm 6MP Leaf back.

The first "Phase One 645" was a Mamiya AFDIII, and the new "Phase One 645DF" is the Mamiya 645DF.  The DM22 and 28 are with the AFDIII.  The 33 and 56 systems come with the latest DF body, but branded as Mamiya, not Phase. Ha, more confusion.

Bcooter, I know what you're saying, and the problem regarding open systems is that Leaf and Phase didn't follow what Sinar was doing , along with the early Hasselblad CF backs: Interchangeable Adapters.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:49:41 pm by T-1000 »
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stevesanacore

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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2009, 04:21:22 am »

Quote from: pcunite
I agree MFD is now within my price range at $10,000 but guess what? These $10K MFD systems all have a base ISO of 25!!! Good grief! What snake oil salesman. Talk about a shock to the system when I bump these things up to ISO 200 just to keep from buying 1200ws lights. What does ISO 100 even look like? Sorry MFD, go back to the drawing board and price a system low like you have done but also useable in real shooting situations (at least mine!)


Thanks for the insight. The one thing I can't afford to do is buy old technology. But it's exciting to see the prices fall into realistic territory.
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ziocan

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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2009, 08:35:56 am »

Quote from: John_Black
While the price is nice, the base ISO on the 22 MP back is ISO 25.  Assuming this is the same sensor and same level of performance as the Leaf Aptus-22, then ISO 25 is difficult to work with.  Shooting outdoors handheld is unlikely due very low shutter speeds.  In the studio it translates into higher output lights.  For some people ISO 25 will be fine, but for those who are accustom to their dSLR which has a base ISO of 100 or 200, transitioning to ISO 25 can be a shock to the system.
Especially those shooting sports... LOL

You guessed right, 25 iso is not for everybody.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:24:24 am by ziocan »
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TMARK

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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 10:25:53 am »

Quote from: pcunite
I agree MFD is now within my price range at $10,000 but guess what? These $10K MFD systems all have a base ISO of 25!!! Good grief! What snake oil salesman. Talk about a shock to the system when I bump these things up to ISO 200 just to keep from buying 1200ws lights. What does ISO 100 even look like? Sorry MFD, go back to the drawing board and price a system low like you have done but also useable in real shooting situations (at least mine!)

100 is really nice.  You need lights to shoot with the A22/A5II/A54s.  Its a specific tool.  The age of the chip isn't an issue.  The limiting factor with this chip is iso.  Use some lights or don't buy it.  

I have a 54s, which is very similar to the A5II.  I find it less usable than film because of the ISO limitations.  Portra 800 looks better than ISO 200 on my Aptus.  No big deal.  If I'm shooting natural light at 200 and up I use a dslr or film.  Otherwise I have 15000 watts of Profoto, a bunch of Arri 1k's, 2k's, and pocket pars.

I really don't understand the bitching about this back.  Its a KNOWN QUANTITY at a LOW price.  Buy it, don't buy it.  If you shoot with lights its for you.  If you don't, keep it real with a D3x.

If you want to bitch, bitch about the features missing from NEW, $40k backs, or the S2 price or iso performance.  There is some bitching to be done there.
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