Lightroom colour balance problem: difference from Photoshop

[Bangham]

I’d be most grateful for advice on a colour balance problem when printing from Lightroom 2.5.

Problem: the rendition of blues and reds is distorted in prints from Lightroom, whereas prints from Photoshop using the same ICC printer profile (and the same computer/printer) are extremely faithful to the original.  

History: I have used Lightroom since the beta test, and have had many excellent results, although I have not always been satisfied with the rendition of blues.  Now, however, the colour balance is unacceptable; my impression is that it has deteriorated in recent versions of Lightroom.

I use: DNG files; Windows XP; Lightroom 2.5; HP Photosmart Pro B9180; HP Advanced Photo paper (satin-matte; 250gsm) or Hahnemuehle Natural Art Duo.

I have done the following: 1. aligned and cleaned the printheads. 2. repeated the closed-loop calibration of the printer, using the requisite paper type (HP Avanced Photo paper, glossy). 3. I used only genuine HP Vivera inks & verified that ink levels are OK. 4. I regularly re-calibrate my monitor using an Eye-One colorimeter. 5. verified that the colour management is set to application managed colours both in the printer driver and in Lightroom.  6.  obtained new custom ICC profiles from both the Digital Dog (USA) and Native Digital (UK) – I did this when I thought the problem lay in the printer.  7.  tried different colour spaces (Adobe RGB or sRGB) – this makes no significant difference to the results.

The problem clearly lies in Lightroom, since Photoshop accurately renders the colours.  I gather from the Adobe forum that others have had similar problems, but a solution is not obvious.  Have others solved this problem?

[Arkady]

The problem clearly lies in Lightroom, since Photoshop accurately renders the colours.  I gather from the Adobe forum that others have had similar problems, but a solution is not obvious.  Have others solved this problem?

Could you clarify. The bluish rendering of LR is relative to the screen or PS printout of the same original?

I assume that you use colorimetric rendering intent in both cases, right?

[digitaldog]

We need more details on how you’re handling this in Photoshop as well as LR. In Photoshop, you have to hand off a rendered image. That means you have to select an output color space. In LR, its all done from the linear encoded data in a ProPhoto RGB like space. So at the very least, it would be useful to export to Photoshop in ProPhoto and print. Also, you might try applying the output profile in Photoshop using Convert to Profile, then using No Color Management in Photoshop’s print dialog just to ensure you’re controlling all the settings in the Convert to Profile dialog correctly. Make sure you’re set to ACE color engine.

One other thing to try as a last resort and as an interesting test. In Lightroom, see what happens when you select Printer Manages Color.

[Photo Op]

One other thing to try as a last resort and as an interesting test. In Lightroom, see what happens when you select Printer Manages Color.

Andrew- Interesting indeed! I tried your suggestion above as a last resort to some of the OP's issues AND my dreaded dark print issue. I even used your test image (referred to in another thread) with the young lady, the hand and the dog watching tv. I have been struggling for years (literally) trying to have a print approximate the image from LR. I have followed all the workflow items, calibrate the monitor most recently with the X-Rite Passport software on an Apple Cinema display. I had not used Managed by Printer for ages. So what the he!!, I gave your suggestion a try. On my "trusty" Epson R2880 your test image came out exactly as the screen. Overall the colors are more vivid and more accurate than when using the Red River supplied profile for their Arctic Polar Satin paper, which I used yesterday as a test. The hand is more flesh toned. The bracelets and balls are the proper color. Even the colors above the "puppy's" head are more visible and accurate. I did some tests of autumn landscapes I have been working on, and the colors were more vivid. The sky and lake water were shades of blue, as opposed to tones of purple. In the foliage, the reds were redder, the yellows more yellow. You get the point.

What the hell is going on?  (Sorry for the profanity)

--Dave

[digitaldog]

What the hell is going on?  (Sorry for the profanity)

Not really sure. Does the tests you output using Printer Manages Color produce the same output when you pick the profile in Photoshop? Printer Manages Color is supposed to work but more than often, it doesn’t. In this case it does, but the real question is, why does selecting the proper profile in LR not provide the results you expect? Maybe Eric Chan of Adobe can comment as to what profile might be selected when Printer Manages Color is selected under Windows.

[Photo Op]

Maybe Eric Chan of Adobe can comment as to what profile might be selected when Printer Manages Color is selected under Windows.

Agreed. Eric's input would be appreciated (I almost emailed him yesterday I was so frustrated). By the way, prior to using Printer Manages Color, yesterday I printed from LR v2.5 and CS4 using the same profile (referenced earlier) and CS4 was more "accurate" in rendering the blues (ie, a little less purple), BUT less vivid in all foliage color than the one from LR.
p.s. v10.6.1 is a clean install on a new HD with no installed drivers from Apple (I was having a problem with CS4 chrashing on save). The 6.57 Epson driver was downloaded separately from web.

[madmanchan]

I have heard of the B9180 issue that users are experiencing when printing from LR on Windows, but not the R2880 issue on the Mac, at least under 10.5.x. Note that 10.6.x requires new drivers (I'm assuming you have done the steps including removing all of the printers from the control panel on the Mac, then installing them again).

[Bangham]

We need more details on how you’re handling this in Photoshop as well as LR. In Photoshop, you have to hand off a rendered image. That means you have to select an output color space. In LR, its all done from the linear encoded data in a ProPhoto RGB like space. So at the very least, it would be useful to export to Photoshop in ProPhoto and print. Also, you might try applying the output profile in Photoshop using Convert to Profile, then using No Color Management in Photoshop’s print dialog just to ensure you’re controlling all the settings in the Convert to Profile dialog correctly. Make sure you’re set to ACE color engine.

One other thing to try as a last resort and as an interesting test. In Lightroom, see what happens when you select Printer Manages Color.

Andrew - many thanks for your extremely helpful suggestions.  I shall try (when I next have a chance) to export to Photoshop in ProPhoto, but I am not sure that I can use the ProPhoto colourspace in my (rather old) PS Elements; I have previously tried sRGB and Adobe RGB.  I shall post again when I have tried this.  But I have already tried using the Managed by printer option from Lightroom: this generates results that are indistinguishable from the Application managed colours option, i.e. the colour balance is still faulty.  I checked, when I did this, that the correct ICC profile was associated with the printer, by manually selecting the correct profile in the printer dialogue box, rather than leaving it to automatic selection.  

Thanks again,

Charles

[Photo Op]

By the way, prior to using Printer Manages Color, yesterday I printed from LR v2.5 and CS4 using the same profile (referenced earlier) and CS4 was more "accurate" in rendering the blues (ie, a little less purple), BUT less vivid in all foliage color than the one from LR.
p.s. v10.6.1 is a clean install on a new HD with no installed drivers from Apple (I was having a problem with CS4 chrashing on save). The 6.57 Epson driver was downloaded separately from web.

Eric/Andrew-

Same experience with Andrew's template jpg. Most "accurate" (& vivid) colors, Monitor vs Print, are with LR v2.5 using Printer Manages Color. Next "best" is CS4 with Printer Manages Color. And least accurate are LR & CS4 managing color with either icc profile. By the way, same overall results using Ilford Smooth Pearl paper with supplied profiles for R2880.

--Dave

[Bangham]

Lightroom 3 beta - the solution?

Having failed to solve the colour balance issue with LR 2.5, I have now downloaded LR 3 beta.  The result:  printing on the same printer (HP B9180) with the same paper and the same ICC profile (Application managed colours selected, so no double-profiling) produces excellent results, with none of the colour distortion that I see when printing from LR 2.5.  I emphasize that the differences are not trivial: the result in LR 2.5 is unusable; the result in LR 3 beta is subtly different from the screen view, but fundamentally an excellent result that could be made perfect (well, for me) with a little tweaking.

Can someone - at Adobe? - please clarify the following points:

1.  could my copy of LR 2.5 have become corrupted so that it distorts colour balance?  If so, presumably uninstalling and re-installing it would solve the problem?

2.  what else might explain the difference in performance between LR 2.5 and LR 3 beta?

3.  might the problem recur with LR 3?  If so, how can I a. remedy it and b. prevent it?

Many thanks,

Charles

[dspeed]

Lightroom 3 beta - the solution?

...snip...

Can someone - at Adobe? - please clarify the following points:

1.  could my copy of LR 2.5 have become corrupted so that it distorts colour balance?  If so, presumably uninstalling and re-installing it would solve the problem?

2.  what else might explain the difference in performance between LR 2.5 and LR 3 beta?

3.  might the problem recur with LR 3?  If so, how can I a. remedy it and b. prevent it?

Many thanks,

Charles

Great question, Charles.  I have not tried the LR3 trick yet, but was getting pretty frustrated with purple instead of blue from the LR2.5 driver.  Odd thing is that I have had nice skys from LR 2.5, but they seem problematic now.  [Running a calibrated NEC 2690, Adobe 1998 and an almost new B9180).

Dave