Prints a little dark

[Miles]

I have been extremely satisfied with my Z3100 printer, but there is one issue relating to color management that I have yet to resolve - my prints are slightly dark, whether I print from CS4 or Lightroom.  I have read other threads relating to this same subject and have implemented many of the suggestions offered by this forum, but the issue remains.  Here are some details:

Dell quad core pc with 8 megs of ram running Vista 64.
Upgraded to nvidia GeForce 9800 GTX+ XLR8 512 mb performance edition video card.
Dual monitors with a ViewSonic VP2650wb primary (used for image display) and a Dell secondary.  (Can't justify spending more for a monitor.  Note that the images are always brighter than printed, no matter which monitor I use.  I bought the Viewsonic thinking I needed a better monitor.)
Spyder 2 Pro monitor calibration (both monitors).  Have set the white point to 120.0 CD/m2 and black to .5 CD/m2.  6500K.
Changed the overhead lighting in my office to a brighter configuration so that the screen wouln't seem as bright and printed output would be better lit.
Print mostly on glossy papers (same issue with all brands I have tried).  Papers have been calibrated.

I have tried calibrating to lower white point settings, but too low results in poor image quality.  If I turn on the setting for the Spyder to measure room light, it will tell me to lower the light level or increase screen brightness to compensate.  Past experience proves this doesn't solve the problem.

I have viewed the LL video and feel that I am using all of the correct settings, but this issue won't go away.  While the following comment isn't scientifically based, I feel that it is true - I print for other photographers as well as for myself and find it hard to believe that all images are slightly underexposed and require an adjustment to lighten them up for printing, whether it is raw or jpeg, and this adjustment will make them look too bright on the monitor.

I am at the point of brute force image adjustments, either using a curve adjustment just before printing to lighten the image, or using the advanced color adjustment setting under the color tab of the printer menu.  The advanced color adjustment has a lightness slider that, if moved to 5 with some minor tweaking to the color balance sliders below it, results in a print that closely matches the monitor (at least on the few that I have tried so far using this method).  The settings do not seem to be sticky however, as they are lost once I exit from CS4.

I would like to find a resolution to this issue without having to tweak the printer settings or do a curves adjustment.  Is there a setting in CS4/Lightroom that I have overlooked?  Any other ideas?  

Has anyone else tried the advanced color adjustment lightness slider on the HP color print tab?  Are there any significant downsides to this?

Sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to provide as much information as I could up front.

Miles

[PeterAit]

I have been extremely satisfied with my Z3100 printer, but there is one issue relating to color management that I have yet to resolve - my prints are slightly dark, whether I print from CS4 or Lightroom.  I have read other threads relating to this same subject and have implemented many of the suggestions offered by this forum, but the issue remains.  Here are some details:

Dell quad core pc with 8 megs of ram running Vista 64.
Upgraded to nvidia GeForce 9800 GTX+ XLR8 512 mb performance edition video card.
Dual monitors with a ViewSonic VP2650wb primary (used for image display) and a Dell secondary.  (Can't justify spending more for a monitor.  Note that the images are always brighter than printed, no matter which monitor I use.  I bought the Viewsonic thinking I needed a better monitor.)
Spyder 2 Pro monitor calibration (both monitors).  Have set the white point to 120.0 CD/m2 and black to .5 CD/m2.  6500K.
Changed the overhead lighting in my office to a brighter configuration so that the screen wouln't seem as bright and printed output would be better lit.
Print mostly on glossy papers (same issue with all brands I have tried).  Papers have been calibrated.

I have tried calibrating to lower white point settings, but too low results in poor image quality.  If I turn on the setting for the Spyder to measure room light, it will tell me to lower the light level or increase screen brightness to compensate.  Past experience proves this doesn't solve the problem.

I have viewed the LL video and feel that I am using all of the correct settings, but this issue won't go away.  While the following comment isn't scientifically based, I feel that it is true - I print for other photographers as well as for myself and find it hard to believe that all images are slightly underexposed and require an adjustment to lighten them up for printing, whether it is raw or jpeg, and this adjustment will make them look too bright on the monitor.

I am at the point of brute force image adjustments, either using a curve adjustment just before printing to lighten the image, or using the advanced color adjustment setting under the color tab of the printer menu.  The advanced color adjustment has a lightness slider that, if moved to 5 with some minor tweaking to the color balance sliders below it, results in a print that closely matches the monitor (at least on the few that I have tried so far using this method).  The settings do not seem to be sticky however, as they are lost once I exit from CS4.

I would like to find a resolution to this issue without having to tweak the printer settings or do a curves adjustment.  Is there a setting in CS4/Lightroom that I have overlooked?  Any other ideas?  

Has anyone else tried the advanced color adjustment lightness slider on the HP color print tab?  Are there any significant downsides to this?

Sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to provide as much information as I could up front.

Miles

I assume that your prints are darker than the soft proof in PS - if they are darker than the unproofed onscreen image, this is nothing surprising. In my experience, the most common change when I soft proof is the image gets a bit darker and a bit less contrasty, so correcting these are the final tweaks before printing. Also, prints are inherently darker-looking than the screen because they are a reflective medium and not an emissive (is that a word?) medium like a monitor.

[Guigui]

I would like to find a resolution to this issue without having to tweak the printer settings or do a curves adjustment.

When I softproof the image, I almost always do a curves and saturation adjustment. Are you sure you take all the steps described in the Soft-Proofing part of the LL video tutorial ?

Furthermore, how do you evaluate your prints ? Do you have a viewing booth or a special lamp ? The brightness of a print will vary a lot depending on the viewing conditions, and a standardized viewing booth or lamp is often recommended.

[walter.sk]

I agree with the above respnses.

1) If your prints are "too dark" compared to both monitors, another test is to take the prints into a well-lit area or under fairly bright daylight and see if they still look to dark.

2) It sounds as if your viewing conditions are too variable or random, and you should take the folowing steps:  
  a) Shield your monitor either with the NEC monitor hood or some black matte foam core that you can use to block your light source(s) from hitting your monitor.  
 2b) Set up a print-viewing area where your ambient light has little influence on it, and use a constant daylight-balanced (D5000) print viewing source.  Make this far enough so that you don't see it when looking at your monitor, and vice-versa.  Shield this from your monitor, as well.
  c) Adjust the print lighting to a distance that seems to match the brightness of your display.
  d)  View your image using the soft-proofing dialog in Photoshop, side by side with a duplicate of your optimized image, not softproofed.  Adjust the soft-proofed version to recapture as much of the original tone and color as you can, and then compare your print under your adjusted lighting to the softproofed image on your monitor.

If any of this is vague to you, please review very carefully the "From Camera To Print" tutorial on the LL website.

[digitaldog]

Agreed. We have to determine if the prints are too dark or just darker than the viewing conditions. 9 times out of ten, an adjustment to either the display luminance or if possible, the viewing booth will produce a match.

That isn’t to say you can’t have a color management issue where your prints are too dark. But its usually just a case of a mismatch between display and viewing conditions.

[bill t.]

Because my pieces are large I often personally deliver them to my customer's houses and workplaces.  Based on actually seeing my prints in their final resting places I suggest that the most practical evaluation "booth" is the most poorly lighted wall in your house or studio, and if lighted at all it should be with worn out tungsten bulbs somewhat throttled down by a dimmer.

If you think your prints look dark coming off the printer, just wait until you seen at your customer's place.  I now print more open and brighter and somewhat cooler than before.

[Dick Roadnight]

Because my pieces are large I often personally deliver them to my customer's houses and workplaces.  Based on actually seeing my prints in their final resting places I suggest that the most practical evaluation "booth" is the most poorly lighted wall in your house or studio, and if lighted at all it should be with worn out tungsten bulbs somewhat throttled down by a dimmer.

If you think your prints look dark coming off the printer, just wait until you seen at your customer's place.  I now print more open and brighter and somewhat cooler than before.

People seldom light pictures well, and many prints of paintings are so dark they need good lighting to look anything... the pix might look fine in a well lit gallery.

[howseth]

Good point bill t. I used to print darker - as if the prints were to be viewed in perfect lighting. I tend to print lighter now. Also, a computer screen is similar to viewing luminous slides - in the good old days with those open shadows/tamed highlights.

Despite technical objections by some - for printing, I keep my screens at lower levels - about 100 - rather than the 120 recommendation.

Howard

[Miles]

I appreciate everyone that took their time to chime in with a response.  

I have tried reducing the monitor brightness to 110.0 CD/m2 but that didn't solve the issue.  Below that level, images don't appear normal on the monitor that I have.  While I don't have a viewing booth, I have viewed the printed images in all sorts of lighting conditions, including bright light.  The images are just plain dark compared to what I see on the screen.  I do softproof with the intent that what I print should match what I see.  It never does (regarding brightness).  I recognize that a projected image will always look different than a printed image, but this difference seems too great.    

Bill and Dick had a great point regarding people seldom light pictures well.  I usually try to make sure my prints are light enough to account for some of this display shortfall.

Based on all the responses, it sounds like I am going to need to write a photoshop script to force a final print adjustments just prior to printing since soft proofing doesn't go far enough to visually compensate for the actual final print.  I just thought a color managed workflow should result in a final product that is closer to what I see on the screen than it is.

Miles

[digitaldog]

While I don't have a viewing booth...

That’s your first problem.

I have viewed the printed images in all sorts of lighting conditions, including bright light.  The images are just plain dark compared to what I see on the screen.

So those light sources are next to the display and allow you to view the print and then the display at say 90 degrees? You can’t possibly look at a print in a room then run into another room with the display and compare.

This isn’t to say your prints are not too dark. That’s entirely possible. The question becomes, is this an issue with the output profile, or the data itself.

You could try downloading a standard test image such as those at Bill Atkinson’s site or mine, apply the profile and make a print. IF it appears too dark, its not the document. That means either the profile or something else in the print settings.

Bills site is http://homepage.mac.com/billatkinson/FileSharing2.html. On my tips and tricks page at the top left is the “Printer Test File”.

[Miles]

Thanks for the advice, Andrew.

While I would like to have a viewing booth and agree it would probably help to some extent, I don't think it is the cure.  There always seems to be something of higher priority to spend the money on and as I said before, the issue doesn't change no matter what the viewing conditions.

Moving on, I downloaded your test image as well as one from Bill's site, applied the correct paper profile and printed.  I then viewed these files with the same profile in CS4.  Here are some observations when comparing the print to the screen:

In the Customize Proof Condition box under the view menu, if I check "Black Point Compensation" or "Simulate Black Inc" or both , the near blacks in the display image lighten.  This goes opposite of the print as the near blacks in the print are darker and tend to extend further into the white to black transition portion of the image.  The image appears closer to the print if I don't check these boxes.

When I check "Simulate Paper Color" the blacks are again reduced and the image loses contrast.  My printed image has quite a bit of contrast and looks closer to the screen if I don't check this box.  This goes againts the LL video suggestion.

The printed girls blouse and lipstick are more pink than on screen.

If I do a gamut check, there are areas that are out of gamut.

Another observation is that when I print your's and Bill's test images, the last two boxes appear to both print as solid black, even though I can discern a difference on the screen.  I believe this is box 20 and 21 in your image.

I reviewed the LL video again and changed my grey gamut to 1.8.  It used to be on 2.2.  Maybe this will make a difference.

I have a standard Z3100 and have reprofiled the paper so I don't think that is the issue.

I had my wife look at the test prints and images.  She immediately said the prints were darker.

Any additional advise you can offer would be appreciated.

Miles

[digitaldog]

In the Customize Proof Condition box under the view menu, if I check "Black Point Compensation" or "Simulate Black Inc" or both , the near blacks in the display image lighten.

Black Point Compensation should be on for printing, Simulate Black and Paper white is a soft proof simulating the dynamic range of the paper onto your display (which is far greater). Hence, it looks muddy but should match the print.

The image appears closer to the print if I don't check these boxes.

Should be just the opposite. Either or both the display profile or printer profile are suspect.

I had my wife look at the test prints and images.  She immediately said the prints were darker.

Darker than what?

Again, the problem is either the printer profile or the display profile, the RGB numbers are sound.

[Miles]

Thanks again for your input.

Miles