LC 11 ???? will it ever be upgraded???

[collum]

Yesterday I met one of the three "primaries" to the new Leaf Imaging company at PhotoPlus, Steve Hendrix was there beside me as well and could tell you his name. Nice guy and he was willing to explain in more details how and what he and the other two did to get the new Leaf Imaging going. They purchased specific tooling, patents and assets from Kodak to continue the Leaf line. They hired some (maybe all I forget) of the employees Kodak fired. The company seems to be on a good track forward.

But and it's a big but, they are a company that has made the decision to support backs going forward not legacy backs as the old Leaf did. They are a new company and that's it. They can't put money and resources to supporting pervious Old Leaf company products. That was the choice they had to make.

Leaf Capture will continue being developed along side Capture One for the foreseeable future. Capture One will support the current new Aptus-II series backs only and newer product in the future, but legacy .MOS files from any previous Leaf back will not be supported in Capture One. At least he was honest enough to say so. So my Aptus 22 files will never work in Capture One, oh well.

I would assume that all future releases will most likely still work with old Leaf company backs, but the new Leaf Imaging will not be testing that. So if they don't "break" anything in the software, things might still be fine on the software side.

But here is my take on medium format backs, and I have heard the same in speaking with other MFDB past and present owners/users at PhotoPlus. Medium format needs to create more feature sets and not keep selling backs solely on the 100% pixel peeping, crazy freaky detail, because those very users/owners, well some just don't care. Their clients don't care either. 22 megapixels is really very reasonable file size for commercial work. Functionality and every other ignored request made by photographers is actually the future for MFDBs. We have put the roadmap out there for the companies, but they just need to listen and do it!

this may be the tract they are following.. but frankly.. it seems like more of a punishment of the old 'legacy' buyers.

From the Capture One release notes.. supported files

Phase One: P 65+, P 45+, P 40+, P 30+, P 25+, P 21+, P 20+, P 45, P 30,
P 25, P 21, P 20, H 25, H 20, H 10, H 101, H 5, LightPhase
Mamiya: M31, M22, M18
Additionally Capture One 4.8.3 / 4.8.3 PRO supports RAW files from the following digital
backs/cameras:
Canon: 1Ds Mark III, 1D Mark III, 1D Mark II N, 1Ds Mark II, 1D Mark II, 1Ds, 1D,
5D Mark II, 5D, 50D, 40D, 30D, 20D, 10D, 500D/Rebel T1i, 450D/Rebel XSi, 400D/Rebel XTi, 350D/Rebel
XT, 300D/Rebel, 1000D, D60, D30, Pro 1, G10, G9, G6, G5, G3, G2
Epson: R-D1s, R-D1
Fuji: S5 Pro, S3 Pro, S2 Pro
Konica Minolta: Alpha 5 D / Maxxum 5 D / Dynax 5 D, Alpha 7 D / Maxxum 7 D / Dynax 7 D, A1, A2
Leica: M9, M8, D-LUX 4, Digilux 3, Digital Module R for R8 and R9 cameras
Mamiya: MZD, ZD Back
Nikon: D3X, D3, D2Xs, D2X, D2Hs, D2H, D1X, D1H, D700, D300, D200, D100, D90, D80, D70s, D70, D60,
D50, D40X, D40
Olympus: E-620, E-3, E-520, E-510, E-420, E-410, E-500, E-1, E-10, E-20, E-30, E-330, E-300, E-400, C-
7070, C-8080
Pentax: K20D, K10D, K200D, K110D, K100D Super, K100D, K2000/K-m, *istDL2, *istDL, *istD, *istDS2,
*istDS
(Only PEF files supported)
Sony: DSLR-A900, DSLR-A700, DSLR-A350, DSLR-A300, DSLR-A200, DSLR-A100, DSC-R1
Adobe: DNG (raw DNG support only). The DNG support is not optimized for specific cameras.


Tethered camera support
Capture One 4.8.3 PRO/DB has tethered support for the following digital backs/cameras:
Phase One: P 65+, P 40+, P 45+, P 30+, P 21+, P 25+, P 20+
P 45, P 30, P 25, P 21, P 20, H 25, H 20, H 101, H 10, H 5, LightPhase
Mamiya: M31, M22, M18
Additionally Capture One 4.8.3 PRO has tethered support for the following cameras:
Canon: 1Ds Mark III, 1D Mark III, 1D Mark II N, 1Ds Mark II, 1D Mark II,
5D Mark II, 5D, 40D, 30D, 20D, 450D/Rebel XSi, 400D/Rebel XTi, 350D/Rebel XT, 1000D
Nikon: D3X, D3, D700, D300, D200, D90, D80, D60, D40x, D40


Last time I checked neither Phase One or Leaf Imaging are responsible for the majority of the cameras on this list.. I could understand the stance if all owners of the above cameras were required to send their cameras in to Phase to have hardware upgrades and serial numbers changed in order to get them to work with Capture One.

Frankly, it seems like an arbitrary decision to punish those who have not upgraded to the latest/greatest that Leaf Imaging is selling (and since there are no 'upgrades', it means buying the new for full price.

[TMARK]

this may be the tract they are following.. but frankly.. it seems like more of a punishment of the old 'legacy' buyers.

. . .

Frankly, it seems like an arbitrary decision to punish those who have not upgraded to the latest/greatest that Leaf Imaging is selling (and since there are no 'upgrades', it means buying the new for full price.

That is how I see it.  Which is why I will, mark my words, film my smashing of my 54s back with a Canon 1 series.  Once the 54s dies, if that ever happens.  I will post the video on YouTube, and I'll wear a ski mask and make silly demands, like demanding that grips wear underwear and not have any felony convictions.

[pixjohn]

Personally I feel ripped off by Leaf and Kodak. From day one I was promised a back that would function and never got it. I wonder what the legality is with Kodak? All I have heard was, promise promise promise, wait wait wait the next version of LC will correct the problem. I never got it, then they dumped the brand. If Phase decides not to support the older Leaf line that is there business decision, but I will never buy another Leaf/Phase product.

There is a bug in LC 11 gain adjuster and no one to fix it.  I bought the Leaf back solely based on the gain adjuster for my style of work.

I am curious if there is anything legal that can be done against Kodak?  My advise to anyone thinking of buying Leaf, don't. Why take a chance Phase will dump the brand 1 year done the line and your stuck with software stuck in 2010.

[asf]

Frankly, it seems like an arbitrary decision to punish those who have not upgraded to the latest/greatest that Leaf Imaging is selling (and since there are no 'upgrades', it means buying the new for full price.

As to upgrades - you may upgrade to the Aptus II 10 and/or "upgrade" (your firmware) to one day run Capture 1. If there are or will be more options no one is saying so.

Like most others here who shoot for a living, 90% of the time there is little I do with my Leaf back that can't be done quicker, easier, and, for the client's needs, just as well with my Canon. The files aren't the same, but they're good, and they print well. Last year I shot 90% Leaf, 10% Canon. This year it's 50/50, and that's only because I prefer the end result of the Leaf back. But with every job it gets harder to justify. Now Leaf Imaging considers me a liability first and a customer second, unless I buy their $2600 "protection package". Earlier this year we were considering getting 2 new Leaf backs. Right now that mindset is a distant memory.

It's just a shame as the aptus still makes the nicest, most photographic files of any back I've seen.

[TMARK]

Totally off topic. Why I really desire moving to motion work is that the projects offer so much more interest to me than the gear and software. And I have some utopian thought that I can produce, create, edit, deliver motion pieces and be done, move on to another piece and never have the desire to revisit the files to try this or that, which plagues digital for me now. I always revisit files and start tinkering for a different look or something. I see motion work some way of getting past that. Then I can store all the motion "data" and be done, maybe not even worry about whether the files can be read in 10 years, maybe not care.

Amen to that.  I don't care if a mayo commercial I lit or shot is readable next week.

[TMARK]

As to upgrades - you may upgrade to the Aptus II 10 and/or "upgrade" (your firmware) to one day run Capture 1. If there are or will be more options no one is saying so.

Like most others here who shoot for a living, 90% of the time there is little I do with my Leaf back that can't be done quicker, easier, and, for the client's needs, just as well with my Canon. The files aren't the same, but they're good, and they print well. Last year I shot 90% Leaf, 10% Canon. This year it's 50/50, and that's only because I prefer the end result of the Leaf back. But with every job it gets harder to justify. Now Leaf Imaging considers me a liability first and a customer second, unless I buy their $2600 "protection package". Earlier this year we were considering getting 2 new Leaf backs. Right now that mindset is a distant memory.

It's just a shame as the aptus still makes the nicest, most photographic files of any back I've seen.

Yes.

I've used the Leaf twice, maybe three times in 2009.  Frankly, I've shot more frames of 4x5 film in 2009 than I've logged on the Leaf back, and its not because the Leaf files aren't fantastic.  They are.  It just doesn't fit into my work as well as it did a few years ago.

[yaya]

All,

The plan is being re-considered right now and we'll hopefully be able to communicate it within a few days. Hence why I kept quiet for the last few days.

Regardless, LC 11.2.9 is expected before the end of the month and it will work on Snow Leopard so Aptus users will have a working solution at no cost.

Stay tuned,

Yair

--
Yair Shahar | Product Manager
Leaf Imaging Ltd.
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, a Phase One company

[photo570]

Finally, perhaps someone realised the most valuable asset they "bought" was the loyal user base they were rapidly pissing off. Me included.

I am a long time Leaf customer, I have five backs, I had two Valeo's, a 22 and a 17, the 22 got stolen rescently, and I will be waiting to see if I will get screwed over with the 17 not working with any new versions of LC11, before I get a AptusII 5, I could care less about Phase C1, really. They need to go back to at-least Valeo, anything less is bullshit ( excuse my French ) in my opinion. Leaf were guilty of this in the past, introducing new versions of LC 11 that were primarily for new models, but would not specifically mention support for older backs. I stopped upgrading at LC11.1, have they added any new functionality since then??

Jason.

All,

The plan is being re-considered right now and we'll hopefully be able to communicate it within a few days. Hence why I kept quiet for the last few days.

Regardless, LC 11.2.9 is expected before the end of the month and it will work on Snow Leopard so Aptus users will have a working solution at no cost.

Stay tuned,

Yair

--
Yair Shahar | Product Manager
Leaf Imaging Ltd.
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, a Phase One company

[wolfbellw.]

after having read more than 70 posts i still don't understand what's going to happen.
i use a aptus 65s bought less than a year ago. will there be any  future leaf capture software
that runs on a recent mac that i can use without having extra expenses for upgrades, guarantees
or however this is called by leaf?
and how about capture one. as far as i understand i have to do an 2000$ upgrade to be able to use it.
does that mean i still have to buy the program or is this included?
and can i use it tethered?
so many questions... seems not easy do get a decent answer from the maufacturer.

[asf]

You couldn't understand because no one knows what will happen.

I'm glad to see Yair has chimed in and they are reconsidering their position.

[wolfbellw.]

hm, seems its a mamiya/phase/leaf - problem
i still have'nt got an answer if i can use the new ls lenses
with my afd III as promised when i purchased it 10 months ago.
not very customer friendly i guess.

[David Amos]

This is nuts.

Take the car industry, BMW brought the Mini and make it in both Germany and the UK.  Can you imagine someone taking their Mini in for a service, that they brought before BMW brought it, and been told that the car has to be “upgraded” to be able to work with BMWs testing machines?  Oh by the way it might cost you 20% of the purchase price or it might be £2000 or it might be something else cos we haven’t decided yet.

How many car companies have changed ownership in the past year?  Do the new owners say tough we don’t have anything to do with that car you brought because it was brought under the old owners.

Please please please just tell people what is going on, so many different accounts are coming out from different places from one day to the next people are just been left confused and frustrated.

David

[Streetshooter]

This is nuts.

Take the car industry, BMW brought the Mini and make it in both Germany and the UK.  Can you imagine someone taking their Mini in for a service, that they brought before BMW brought it, and been told that the car has to be “upgraded” to be able to work with BMWs testing machines?  Oh by the way it might cost you 20% of the purchase price or it might be £2000 or it might be something else cos we haven’t decided yet.

How many car companies have changed ownership in the past year?  Do the new owners say tough we don’t have anything to do with that car you brought because it was brought under the old owners.

Please please please just tell people what is going on, so many different accounts are coming out from different places from one day to the next people are just been left confused and frustrated.

David

David,

Indeed, confused, frustrated and bewildered. Just another example of the MFDB industry screwing around with their customer base. I'm so glad I didn't get involved with buying a back now. All I do is get out the D3x plug it in and it works. No mess, no worries, no angst. Another customer lost to the 35mm DSLR crowd. Believe me I love medium format, so if I feel the need to use MF now I just use film, and very nice it is too.

Pete

[Mr. Rib]

I've just read the whole topic and before reading the quoted post I've been thinking whether I should put my Aptus 75 for auction on ebay or I would get a better price from my dealer...
No software updates without paying = bye bye Aptus, hello Hasselblad, that's a no brainer. Paying $2600 for the >>LUXURY<< of using up-to-date software in our modern world is an insult. I don't know who's idea is that but it feels like some kind of a revenge for choosing Leaf products over Phase one alternatives.
Oh, one more funny thing. A month ago I asked polish Leaf representative for a price quote and hardware upgrade routes for my Aptus 75. For 16,6k euro I can get an upgrade to Aptus II 7 with this new warranty. The price tag for Aptus II 7 here is 20,74k euro so it seems that my back is worth 4k euro according to Leaf. That differs a bit from what I've seen on my bill when I got mine. Oh, wait, you have to subtract the new extended warranty, so my back according to Leaf is worth 2k. And for extra 16k euro I can exchange the back for a newer one with the same sensor dimmension, ain't that great...

If it turns out that there are no LC software upgrade possibilities without paying, you can PM me with your offers because my Aptus 75 is up for grabs.

All,

The plan is being re-considered right now and we'll hopefully be able to communicate it within a few days. Hence why I kept quiet for the last few days.

Regardless, LC 11.2.9 is expected before the end of the month and it will work on Snow Leopard so Aptus users will have a working solution at no cost.

Stay tuned,

Yair

--
Yair Shahar | Product Manager
Leaf Imaging Ltd.
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, a Phase One company

[wolfbellw.]

since phase/mamiya/leaf are constantly screwing their customers
think about legal action or at least boycott their products in the future
and let them go down the drain, if they are not willing to change their attitude.
companies thousand times bigger have been forced to reconsider their business conduct
under the pressure of consumers.
who needs companies who ignore even the basics of business ethics?

[Mr. Rib]

since phase/mamiya/leaf are constantly screwing their customers
think about legal action or at least boycott their products in the future
and let them go down the drain, if they are not willing to change their attitude.
companies thousand times bigger have been forced to reconsider their business conduct
under the pressure of consumers.
who needs companies who ignore even the basics of business ethics?

obviously Nikon / Canon wouldn't dare to make such a bold move because it's quite obvious that somewhere it brakes the law of customer, at least European Union regulations. USA has even more profound and complex customer law regulations and if the market was say 5 000 000 digital backs, noone would ever attempt to do such a thing, it would end up with a flood of court action..
I wonder how did Leaf img and P1 back themselves up. Maybe re-branding laws help them somehow tackle this issue.. I don't believe that a company makes such a move without backing itself up.

[UlfKrentz]

All,

The plan is being re-considered right now and we'll hopefully be able to communicate it within a few days. Hence why I kept quiet for the last few days.

Regardless, LC 11.2.9 is expected before the end of the month and it will work on Snow Leopard so Aptus users will have a working solution at no cost.

Stay tuned,

Yair

--
Yair Shahar | Product Manager
Leaf Imaging Ltd.
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, a Phase One company

Hi Yaya,

I wrote this to Martin before. I am a bit disappointed and worried about the future developments. We own "former leaf" backs and it seems to me and many other users that we are forced to use C1 in the future. I like LC very much (V8 was great for shooting, too, used LC10 for tif-converting these days), don´t like C1 and the people trying to push Phase One here. Even if C1 might get better using leaf (creo) software knowledge, will it be better than LC? And even if, I will still not be willing to pay that amount for the "updates" of the old backs. Our "insurance" was always to have a second back and a second camera to switch over if something would be wrong with a setup (Cameras failed, we never needed the backup back until now). But WE VALUE OUR CUSTOMERS and our productions are too important for us to take a risk here. 99,5% of our work is done with our leaf backs, looking at the image results I still think we made the right decision to use leaf technology for our work but I am sure you will loose a lot of trust in the installed base of your customers going that way. MFDB is not an easy place right now, but you should really reconsider these plans in a quiet moment and I hope to see leaf developing strong and continue to deliver the best digital equipment in the future, not to squeeze your users to get money for P1.

Cheers

Ulf

[mattlap2]

Hello Yair:


It seems that Leaf Imaging (or its big boss Phase 1) only want to inherit those clients (or client list) from Leaf Photography, and squeeze money from them.

Leaf Imaging should support all products by Leaf Photography. If everyone just want to be away from their predecessors, how this world could. Look at Sinar, the new company still support those products by the OLDER Sinar.

As for the AFi system, I can say, Even Leaf Image continue that system again, the current AFi users may well be required to purchase some warranty extension plan too. Am I right?

Leaf Imaging should be a Trustworthy company to win every client's Loyalty.

Xin

Xin,

It is only limited true that Sinar Photography will support older product.   Sinar itself stopped supporting Fibre Optic backs with new software in eXposure.    Support for backs such as the FW 43 backs and the Jenoptik backs never materialized.  

I believe Sinar Photography is honest in their intentions of providing software upgrades in the future, but not all backs will or are supported.   The same goes for repair of older backs.   Some of them just cannot be repaired any longer.

The truth is that the new Leaf Imaging probably does not have access to some of the  older backs to test support.   I am sure they made choices as to what intellectual property to purchase from Kodak, and did not purchase others that did not make financial sense.  

I have spent more than 20 years working with employees from Leaf, as well as Sinar.   They are very good customer driven people and  are not looking to "screw" anyone.   They have had to make very difficult decisions in order to save their respective companies and provide support to ANY customers.   It is just a bit unrealistic to expect them to write a blank check and say they will support all product.

If Leaf or Sinar had not been rescued there would be NO support of any kind.   You would have been left with no form of any software upgrades or technical support into the future.  Totally locked into computer, software and hardware options for the remaining life of the back.    I still know photographers that are still using backs on G3's and G4s without any hope of upgraded hardware, because that is where they are stuck for various reasons.  Be it the company went out of business, or the computer technology no longer allows upgrades.

I am not trying to minimize your concerns or aggravation.   But it seems that Leaf Imaging has said that there will be at least one more free software upgrade allowing Snow Leopard compatibility.   One that would be otherwise unavailable if Leaf had closed it's doors forever.   After that the choice is up to you whether to upgrade the firmware to use C1 or stay put and get another X number of years out of your back before Apple introduces a new operating system.

[asf]

How is a $2600 firmware upgrade justified? Who else does this?

It doesn't cost them to allow previous owners to use software they let others use for free (or at most much less than $2600). Charging $2600 is milking people who have basically no choice.

If I buy an A75 refurb tomorrow it will be able to use the new software for free. It's only because the new company sold it as opposed to the old company. The back is the same as the one I could have bought before the takeover.

I think the people from Leaf are not the ones making this decision.

And to say the choice was this or have no Leaf whatsoever is misleading. We can have a Leaf that doesn't try to screw us for being associated with the previous owners instead of Phase.

[Christopher]

Ferrari still repair their sports car made in 20 years ago, why? Becasue it is the matter of the Client Loyalty. I regard that as an outstanding tradition of an Europen company, because they care the Ancestry or the Bloodline. But now, we are living in a MAC Hamburger world. Fast food culture (the pressure of earn money as quick as possible)  is destroying everything.

The employees from Leaf, as well as Sinar are HONEST, I am not doubt about that. The case we are discussing is nothing/something about the Honesty, but of sustaining the Loyalty from your clients.

Please polish the brand of Leaf Imaging when you are earning money.

Xin

Well yes Ferrari repairs the old cars, but certainly not for free.....