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Author Topic: Prepare for battle. The medium format market  (Read 12485 times)

Nemo

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Prepare for battle. The medium format market
« on: October 14, 2009, 11:39:47 am »

An interesting article from the BJP:

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870014

Quote
But Hasselblad is adamant that if the medium format market is to grow, the cameras have to become simpler to use, while still providing an outstanding image quality.

That's wrong. It is a question of price, relative to 35mm "pro" cameras.

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pcunite

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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 11:45:54 am »

[!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=http://digitalimagingu.com/articles/digitalimagingdetectors.html)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (http://digitalimagingu.com/articles/digitalimagingdetectors.html)[div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]CMOS sensors allow gain manipulation of individual photodiodes, region-of-interest read-out, high speed sampling, electronic shuttering and exposure control. They have extraordinary dynamic range as well as an ideal format for the computer interface. It is likely that they will replace CCD cameras in a number of scientific applications in the near future.[/quote]

MFD had better get busy then...
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Nemo

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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 12:06:57 pm »

Quote
Poulsen: 'It's hard to see ourselves survive unless we grow the market. How do you increase the market? By creating a dream product as an alternative to 35mm solutions, and creating a simple message where the only questions are "will it benefit my business?" and "can I afford it?". If we do it right, we will get more customers from the 35mm market.'

Wrong again. The price is just a variable, but a very important one, and it is the more important variable if you want to expand the market... I am reading this and I am shocked. MF manufacturers (including Leica) don't get the picture...


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Rudy Torres

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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 12:08:31 pm »

Agreed, It is about price. For Pro Shooters a faster return on our investment is a priority these days.

However, I don't know how the MF Manufacturers even make a profit. Their market shrinks as their overhead increases . I can understand a heavy price tag per unit. MF makers can't compete with the market share of Canon and Nikon. That's why I say sell your craft not the gear. Smoke and mirrors boys,... smoke and mirrors.
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Nemo

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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 12:10:41 pm »

Quote
David Bell, managing director of Leica Camera UK: 'Although the S2 has been developed for digital photo-graphy, with its size and handling echoing that of a 35mm camera, its positioning is firmly as the new standard of medium format photography, removing the barrier between 35mm and medium format cameras.'

The barrier is the price... In the film era the price of a top class 35mm camera and a 6x6 or 645 MF camera was very similar... Different systems, different features, but prices not so different. A question of choice. But now the price differences are in the x2 or x3 magnitude!
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James R Russell

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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 01:21:01 pm »

Quote from: pcunite
MFD had better get busy then...

It's difficult to tell in these short articles what was said, what was left out, though the quotes were brief, maybe on target . . . well almost on target.

If these companies really believe their main market is photography for commerce, then they somewhat glossed over the real reason any professional photographer shoots digital . . .
because you can see the image, the client can see the image and everyone goes home secure.

I'm not bashing medium format but it's somewhat ironic that seeing the image is so important, though as of today, all medium format backs have challenged lcds, or require a computer to get a decent preview.

Now when it comes to tethering, I've never met a photographer that "loves" tethering, anymore than I've met a DP, or good director that loves the video tap for cinema cameras.  It is just another level of complexity, limited mobility that gets in the way of making a photograph.

It is sometimes necessary, sometimes mandatory, but I've shot few sessions in the digital segment of my career, where at some point I didn't have to unplug to get the image I wanted.  In fact 99.9% of the best imagery I've produced have always come from an untethered camera, which is ironic because medium format prides itself on "superior" image quality though on the other hand makes it very difficult to tell if the photographer actually captured the "superior" image.

I really would have thought that the very first thing a specialty camera maker would have put resource to would be the preview.  

Imagine a Hasselblad with a whopping 5" screen and a  wi-fi to a device like an Ipod touch.  Imagine if you could hand out ten ipod touches around the room and just shoot
knowing people could look or not look, zoom in or not zoom in, but the photographer would be free to actually move more than 15' from the camera.

Imagine a 6 figure shoot without a digital tech.

Also left out in that article was any mention of time investment.  Professional photographers that know there way around the digital process are just completely overburdened with time demands.  I know zero photographers that go to bed each night (make that each morning) knowing they
completed all of their tasks for the day, even 1/2 of that.

I know at the end of every still photography shoot day I'm looking at 1 to 2 days of post production before we even get to final selects.  No photographer ever dreamed they would become their own lab, pre press house and proofer, much less web site/gallery builder and html expert.

The software of these cameras needs to be easier, not just faster, easier, because I've done the test of moving 42 sliders back and forth trying to get to final and at the end of the day, it's 50% more time effective just to produce a properly exposed image, then send it to photoshop and do the color and tone corrections there.

Again, I'm amazed that Iphone Apps are outpacing, out offering what is available in professional software suites and do it with a few clicks.  

The other thing this  medium format article did not touch on is higher iso.  Shooting low light, continuous light, available light with some slight modifiers has opened up a whole new world of photography and I and others have expanded our repertoire  with incorporating found light along with simple modifiers in ways we could never do with film.

I've shot with the illumination of window lights in soho, light from a juke box in Dallas, I even used a TV screen as a key light in Miami and medium format just doesn't like to go that direction.  Sometimes you can shoot low light with medium format but you usually are locked down on a tripod saying, hold it , don't move, God don't move.

The last thing I have to say about this article is nobody mentioned motion capture.  (I hate the term video, cause video sounds cheap).

Still photography is not dead, but motion is with us and won't go away, actually it allows us to offer more, create more, do more than we could ever dream possible just a few years ago and the ability to offer a client motion imagery, even if they don't ask for it makes them happy and making a client happy is the goal.  That's doesn't mean we all have to be roll over queens, though giving more than expected keeps you working, regardless of the economy.

I find it interesting that Phase looks at Hasselblad, Hasselblad looks at Canon/Nikon but no one has actually asked us what we need tomorrow, not today.  I've talked to different makers, mentioned lenses, lcd's etc. but in the end the camera we need doesn't exist because the work we will be producing in a year or two hasn't been dreamed up yet.

There is all this talk about the cost of medium format cameras and for what they do some of it seems absurd, but before anybody makes anything new, sends out another pdf roadmap press release, I suggest they climb on board and go through a photographers production from start to finish.

$40,000 for a camera, I''ll write that check in an instant if and this is a big if, the camera doesn't stop me from shooting anything I desire, in fact the camera can do so much I have to dream up new ways to use it at it's fullest.

I'd love to see a non mirror box camera, with a big lcd, wifi previews to hand held devices, tether easy to larger computers, iso that is really moveable, not somewhat moveable and most of all real full frame, high def raw motion capture that is beyond the dslr offerings.

I want a camera to rock my world, to make my work better, my life easier, my clients go holy shit that's amazing.

I want in camera processing like iphone apps that give me the look I want out of the camera for galleries and previews so at the end of the day, all I have to do is drag 1000 images to the web for review.

I want these things to last more than 12 months.   I don't mind buying new lenses, buying new accessories, but I'm tired of looking at almost brand new cameras sitting on a shelf because the lcd doesn't give a proper preview, or the iso just won't go past slow film without a month of post work.

Most of all I want these camera companies to stop looking at each other for answers and look at me and other photographers.

I don't want to hear about megapixels cause megapixels is so 2009.  I want to hear about what will work for 2012.

I want the camera makers to talk to a  client that doesn't hope for good work, but demands great work.

When I read an article that addresses this I'll then write a new check for equipment.

The thing I really want when I read these articles is for the makers to stop talking about each other and talk about what they are going to offer, better yet, what they offer today.

Phase needs to forget about Hasselblad, Hasselblad needs to drop the talk about Leica, Leica just needs to get on with it and deliver product.  


JR




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MichaelEzra

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Prepare for battle. The medium format market
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 01:48:23 pm »

James, great write-up!
Historically photographer's artistic creativity is tightly coupled with creativity on the technical side.
Most of the photography known to me is overly consumed in fighting with limitations of the offered technologies.
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pcunite

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 02:48:22 pm »

Excellent James!
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 03:02:13 pm »

Quote from: Rudy Torres
Agreed, It is about price.
¿Why do they not discount the lower res versions and continue to sell them? a 22Mpx back and an old Sinar is useful kit - the answer, I think,  that there is so much 2nd hand stuff on the market that it is not worth their time making new e.g. 22s?
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses

yaya

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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 04:37:57 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
¿Why do they not discount the lower res versions and continue to sell them? a 22Mpx back and an old Sinar is useful kit - the answer, I think,  that there is so much 2nd hand stuff on the market that it is not worth their time making new e.g. 22s?

Who do you mean by they ?
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yaya

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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 04:41:05 pm »

Quote from: John-S
Funny thing is that there really isn't that much second gear around at the moment (2nd hand market). We had a big rush early in the year and some this summer, but from here, other normal MFDB for sale forums and ebay, not much out to he honest. What I see at the dealers is much older stuff that is tether only gear. Where are all those many A22's that photo schools bought for so many years. Where are are all the non plus backs from Phase. I guess just being used by current owners and everyone is sitting tight.

John, some of the Leaf dealers, now that production has recommenced, are listing their ex. demo and rental stock to make room for new Leaf Aptus-II's so you should start seeing some A22, A75, A75S etc. showing up.
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Chris Livsey

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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 04:41:22 pm »

No one want to comment about volume ? very telling. Ten years ago they could sell 60,000 a year now it's 6000. We had many threads on here pondering the volumes these figures are from the CEO.

Also surprised no one titled a thread "Hasselblad admits mistake"  

This from the same BJP issue:   http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=870001

On bringing back "trade up/in".
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 04:42:22 pm by Chris Livsey »
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Plekto

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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 05:53:40 pm »

Quote from: Nemo
Wrong again. The price is just a variable, but a very important one, and it is the more important variable if you want to expand the market... I am reading this and I am shocked. MF manufacturers (including Leica) don't get the picture...

And that's why the 800lb gorilla coming down the street will obliterate them in no more than 2-3 years.  What exactly does happen when Nikon puts out a 40MP camera with no AA filter(or makes it optional as a special order)?  At even Nikon's inflated prices, it will blow a hole in the side of the 20-40K DB market.  Because the boss and/or client will look at both and not give a damn about the minor differences between the lenses and focal lengths and so on.  They will see nearly identical results for 1/10th the price and buy it every time.  

If we were talking cars, the DB companies would be exotic car makers.  Well, the ugly truth is Audi and Porsche and Mercedes are now making cars that are *this* close to competing with them at a fraction of the price.  In ten years, it'll be really hard to justify getting an exotic car when the commodity ones are cheaper, more reliable, and drive better.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 05:55:17 pm by Plekto »
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Daniel Browning

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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 06:02:52 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
And that's why the 800lb gorilla coming down the street will obliterate them in no more than 2-3 years.  What exactly does happen when Nikon puts out a 40MP camera with no AA filter(or makes it optional as a special order)?

For applications where resolution and cost are the main factors, that will work. But there are many other things in play. Even if the 35mm sensor had 100 MP, it still would not put out the same image as the larger format. Just as a 15 MP digicam cannot put out the same image as a 6 MP APS-C. Contrast at a given spatial frequency cannot be matched in a smaller format just by adding more pixels, nor can SNR in the top N stops of dynamic range be matched except with extreme differences in technology. Of course, for many applications the difference will be small enough that it does not justify the price.
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bcooter

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Prepare for battle. The medium format market
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 06:18:34 pm »

Quote from: yaya
Who do you mean by they ?

I think he meant You Guys at Phlemya but he was trying to be polite.

I also think he meant how bout something with a sensor from the current decade for a good price.  (insert smile).


BC
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pschefz

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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 06:42:12 pm »

excellent as always james....did you copy/paste this post? i feel like i have seen this from you before:)
actually many of us have said the same thing for years now....and the only thing that has really improved is the one thing nobody really had an issue with to begin with.....a 4 year old 22mpix back still smokes all dslrs at 100iso....but i guess it must be easier to keep piling on the megapixels which only make our lives more miserable and workload larger....
if any MF maker would just go through this forum and look at what people have wanted for years.....how about 8 af spots? how about that bigger lcd? james put it all in there......

the reason i don't shoot DMF anymore is simply because a 2500$ camera gives me a file that holds up beautifully to the one from my old 25000$ P30 file....and i can light a shot with my iphone or a tv and my previews look great and everybody is happy and i can process the files in 1/3 of the time....and i can control the whole thing incl previews from my iphone (onone dslr remote)....

there simply isn't a "DMF" camera out there i would even want...ok the S2 is pretty hot but i know it won't in any way improve my shots and definitely not my workflow.....

i guess it comes down to the fact that the people who own DMF these days are mostly hobby shooters and rental houses.....the "old" MF base of pros now shoots DSLR and rents the 60mpix thing if the crazy client wants it and wants to pay for it.....

nikon announcing a FF 12mpix camera that can shoot a crow in a tunnel really sums things up nicely......it is the exact opposite of anything DMF...yet it has a bigger market, will sell more and most importantly we will see something similar in higher resolution for the people who need and want it.....nikon actually made it 720 (and not 1080) because this camera is for reporters, sportshooters and such...they don't want 1080....

what is funny to me is that the price at 4200$ seems too steep compared to what is out there....and these people talk about 40000$ cameras.....
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cyberean

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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 09:22:18 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
I want a camera to rock my world, to make my work better, my life easier, my clients go holy shit that's amazing.

you might wanna listen to the following photog ...
he seems to be on the right track ...
[blockquote]
Quote from: bcooter
Second note to self.

Do not buy any more cameras.  What I own works, stop messing around.  Go to the Pit Bull shop in East LA and buy that shock collar.

Spend more time using what I got, what I know and less time in front of the computer learning something that doesn't really change anything.
[/blockquote][/i]
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shutay

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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 09:35:01 pm »

Quote from: pschefz
but i guess it must be easier to keep piling on the megapixels which only make our lives more miserable and workload larger....

Unfortunately, if I understand it correctly, the megapixels comes "for free" so-to-speak as a result of the process technology they use to manufacture the wafers - If they previously used 130nm process, and now are using 90nm, the transistors are inherently smaller and so you automatically get more space (if sensor size is fixed), so they just fill it up with more pixels. And then it comes across "impressive" in the marketing. Still, I suppose with P1's P65+ sales being as good as they say it is... but does it sell for it's physical sensor size or for the megapixels?
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telyt

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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 09:58:18 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
I want a camera to rock my world, to make my work better, my life easier, my clients go holy shit that's amazing.

If you depend on a camera to make clients go holy shit that's amazing it won't be long before all your competitors have written the same check you have and ** POOF ** there goes your competitive advantage and you'll be back where you started, $40,000 poorer.  Better to develop skills that nobody else can replicate.
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ziocan

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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 11:22:21 pm »

Quote from: Plekto
And that's why the 800lb gorilla coming down the street will obliterate them in no more than 2-3 years.  What exactly does happen when Nikon puts out a 40MP camera with no AA filter(or makes it optional as a special order)?
It happens that it may not be possible or worth using it above f5,6/f8 because of diffraction.

And that apply to any of the 35mm dslr makers.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 11:23:36 pm by ziocan »
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