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Author Topic: HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?  (Read 4478 times)

Marshallarts

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« on: October 08, 2009, 07:07:16 pm »

Because of limitations with my memory card, I can only do one or the other. Unfortunately I don't have room for multiple RAW bracketed exposures. But for this shooting situation I feel I will benefit from HDR.

With a single RAW I would defenitely experiment with creating bracketed TIFFs from the single RAW file. But would it be better to just shoot jpeg?--- since one benefit from RAW is extended dynamic range I feel brackets JPEGs could even offer more.

Is there something I'm missing?  What do you think?
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Jonathan Wienke

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 07:27:52 pm »

Buy a larger memory card. They're cheap. Neither single-RAW or multi-JPEG HDR works very well.
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wolfnowl

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 02:12:01 am »

Quote
Buy a larger memory card. They're cheap.

Yup.  That's the only real answer.

RAW files and .jpg files may both have their place, but not in comparisons to each other.
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pegelli

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 02:30:16 am »

Fully agree with the advice. You want to use HDR when your darks and lights are too much for your sensor in one shot so bracketed raws is really the only option. In jpg the gamma curve is already applied and the DR reduced, so if you want to be successfull you need a much wider bracket and more shots to achieve something which might come close (but never will be as good as) bracketed raws.

Memory cards are pretty cheap these days.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Marshallarts

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 09:42:56 am »

...  Though I appreciate the advice (and yes, you're right, memorycards are cheap and braketed RAW IS the way to go), as I stated before this is not an option...

I already have 2x 32GB CF cards which is the largest size they make.  This is for a long duration time lapse and I won't be able to check on it but once or twice a week. So I need the space to be away for extended periods..

So if one had to choose, which would it be?  I wish I could visit the site more frequently but I'm simply not getting paid enough to take time from other work.
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Wayne Fox

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 02:05:51 pm »

I think it's going to depend on the scene and how extreme the dynamic range is.

I think jpegs will only work if you are using simple masking such as a gradient mask on multiple layers.  If the challenge is pretty simple (sky vs non sky, fairly straight line), they may work OK.  Maybe could even go with a a Split ND grad so you could then use a single raw.

If using only a single RAW you'll have to set the exposure  to not clip highlights, this means you could lose all shadow detail and have a lot of noise if the dynamic range is pretty extreme.

Good luck ... not sure either will give you the results you are looking for.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 02:06:39 pm by Wayne Fox »
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Marshallarts

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 11:11:30 pm »

The program I've found most helpful (despite what others say about the way it makes HDR photos look fake) is photomatix.  Very easy to work with but IMHO actually produces the best images as far as increased local contrast is concerned (I would say global but that would start a huge local vs global war... oops, did I just do that?).  If I'm "trying" to go for HDR I use photomatix.  Typically I use the photoshop layers methods / grad filters most every other time anyhow.   I say this because my intention isn't to create masks like Wayne Fox describes in his workflow.  Though I understand more conservative approach to HDR, I don't "feel" the results like I would with more frowned upon techniques.  In that regard, I will be using photomatix not layers in photoshop.

Wayne Fox, could you please explain to me more about your concern with jpeg in this case?  

I love RAW.... believe me, it's the way to go.  But for some reason I can't help feel bracketed jpegs would be the way to go for premeditated HDR so long as I can control other variables (WB for one).  With +2, 0, -2 I certainly get more DR....  or don't I?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 11:18:39 pm by Marshallarts »
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NikoJorj

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 09:30:59 am »

Quote from: Marshallarts
With +2, 0, -2 I certainly get more DR....  or don't I?
Not much more than from a single raw (which can be pushed about +1 and -3), imho...

You may want to bracket further (like [+3,0,-3] or more) but I don't know :
- if photomatix deals well with very far-apart bracketed exposures,
- if the tone mapping would not reveal some jpeg artefacts.
NB These are just questions, as I don't know photomatix enough. The best could be to try.
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Guillermo Luijk

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 10:39:46 am »

Quote from: NikoJorj
- if photomatix deals well with very far-apart bracketed exposures

It doesn't. Photomatix is highly inefficient at getting the best from the RAW files provided when there is a reasonable exposure gap. For RAW files shot 2 or 3 stops apart, it manages to achieve good results (as long as you consider the Photomatix feeling a good result). But try to feed Photomatix with shots more than 3 stops apart and expect a lot of fun (2 RAW files 4+1/3 stops apart):



With a simple exposure correction + pixel selection algorithm (this can even be done in PS with a mask layer) you can achieve this from the same source files:




It is ridiculous that this happens. If Photomatix really had an efficient information collection stage, there wouldn't be such big differences in the result when using a different number of bracketed files. For example {-2,+2} compared to {-2,0,+2} should just display some extra noise in the middle tones, but would produce basically the same result because most cameras provide the first 4 stops in their DR acceptably free of noise, making the middle shot quite unimportant. However the output result in Photomatix changes heavily depending on the number of RAW files used, just discarding or adding a middle image can produce a totally different output.

These images have been scaled down using nearest neighbour to preserve the original per-pixel SNR, and even with that it's hard to see any difference after an optimum blending:
 

 
The areas where the middle shot can contribute are those middle tones where the 2 shots sequence will render a bit noisier. Enhancing the effect with curves:



The difference will hardly be a problem in a normal pp.

Regards.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 04:34:30 am by GLuijk »
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Wayne Fox

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 01:35:58 am »

Quote from: Marshallarts
Wayne Fox, could you please explain to me more about your concern with jpeg in this case?

I would be concerned if using a program like photomatix the jpeg artifacts would be exaggerated as the software overlays the various exposures.  I've never used Photomatix, so this is just speculation on my part.
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Marshallarts

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 11:13:42 am »

Quote from: GLuijk
.... If Photomatix really had an efficient information collection stage, there wouldn't be such big differences in the result when using a different number of bracketed files. For example {-2,+2} compared to {-2,0,+2} should just display some extra noise in the middle tones, but would produce basically the same result because most cameras provide the first 4 stops in their DR acceptably free of noise, making the middle shot quite unimportant. However the output result in Photomatix changes heavily depending on the number of RAW files used, just discarding or adding a middle image can produce a totally different output.

Absolutely!!!  You're right!!  One of the more frustrating issues I have with Photomatix is choosing the spacing and number of photos in generating HDR.  Whether I use 2, 3, 5, or 7 and if the spacing is 0.5 EV, 1 EV, 1.5EV, 2, 3 (and so on), my results are very different!  I would think it wouldn't matter *this* much (except the obvious EV limits you've chosen to attempt) and in fact was confused why a dedicated HDR program can't do this automatically when given a single RAW file, selecting the bracketed EVs to push it (instead of having to manually adjust, export TIFFs, then drag into Photomatix)--although that may be a separate issue all together.

GLuijk, you've come to the rescue with other HDR posts I've made in the past and I've always found your advice very informative and helpful.  I definitely consider your opinion that of an expert and appreciate your contributions (okay, enough kissing up ).  I've looked into your Zero Noise product but use a Mac, and it's for PC.  In past threads you've explained your Zero Noise product and HDR workflow more as a way to reduce noise (hence the name I guess) and from what I've gathered less of a way to specifically expand dynamic range.  Despite others reservations to the HDR aesthetic this expanded DR is what I want to achieve (and of course reduced noise is good too).  

In this post you seem to directly link Zero Noise to HDR, I'm interested in learning more about it's workflow and specifics about it's process.  You mentioned the importance of an 'efficient information collection stage', how does Zero Noise differ or operate in this regard?  How does it's blending differ?  In one of your examples you explained "scaled down using nearest neighbour to preserve the original per-pixel SNR", is this a Zero Noise thing or something you did just to use the photos as examples here.

I very much want to better understand this process.  There are many different opinions and techniques in this processing and simply I want to know which creates the best results.  It's hard to choose the appropriate questions because I don't know them yet.  Could you shed some light based on your experience.  And is there a Mac solution for Zero Noise!?
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Guillermo Luijk

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HDR- single RAW (to bracket in post) or bracketed jpegs?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 06:44:11 pm »

Quote from: Marshallarts
In this post you seem to directly link Zero Noise to HDR, I'm interested in learning more about it's workflow and specifics about it's process.  You mentioned the importance of an 'efficient information collection stage', how does Zero Noise differ or operate in this regard?  How does it's blending differ?  In one of your examples you explained "scaled down using nearest neighbour to preserve the original per-pixel SNR", is this a Zero Noise thing or something you did just to use the photos as examples here.

I very much want to better understand this process.  There are many different opinions and techniques in this processing and simply I want to know which creates the best results.  It's hard to choose the appropriate questions because I don't know them yet.  Could you shed some light based on your experience.  And is there a Mac solution for Zero Noise!?

Marshallarts, the first thing one has to understand is what DR means in digital imaging. And we can talk about DR in 2 stages:
- Capture: capture all the scene's DR information
- And post processing: tone map the captured DR so the ouput device (let it be a print, a projection or just a JPEG image displayed on a monitor) shows the captured information

If we don't capture properly all the information, or don't manage to map it so that we make it visible in the output device, we won't have a high DR image.

In the first stage, the limitation of the camera in capturing a given range of stops is defined by just one word: NOISE. Any camera is able to capture a certain amount of stops from the RAW saturation to the shadows where the information gets lost in noise. A camera that can capture more DR is a camera in which noise appears at deeper shadows, and there is not more to know about it.

Present cameras capture around 8-9 stops acceptably free of noise, so if the DR of the scene is higher we need to do several shots at different exposures and take the best of each (non-clipped highligts from the least exposed shots, and noise free shadows from the most exposed shots). And this is what ZN does: for every pixel, it simply picks the most exposed non-clipped value in the set of RAW files that was fed into it. If the winner is a value from any RAW file that was not the least exposed, its exposure is corrected down to fit the least exposed RAW's exposure.

The second stage is up to you. ZN performs no tone mapping at all, so the image it outputs looks disgusting, underexposed and dull (in fact it looks exactly the same as if you develop the least exposed RAW in ACR settting _all_ controls to 0), but has a very high quality in terms of noise and tonal richness. Taking the example of the guy climbing up the stairs, you can mix the 2 RAW files in ZN and then make several copies of ZN's output at different exposures as input for Photomatix; the result will be perfect (according to Photomatix style). But if you feed the two RAW files straight into Photomatix you get completely wrong results because Photomatix is sub-optimum and unpredictable at the information gathering stage. Its algorithms probably are not clearly split into an information collection stage, and a tone mapping stage, but instead perform all at the same time varying a lot the result depending on the number and separation of the input files.

The question of the nearest neighbour rescaling has nothing to do with ZN, I just used that (it is called 'Aproximation' resizing in the Spanish version of PS) to preserve the SNR of a 100% crop but displaying a much smaller size image. I didn't want the rescaling process to reduce noise in order to show what you can expect looking at a 100% crop.

BR
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 03:32:09 am by GLuijk »
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