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Author Topic: Michael's Ultimate Shootout  (Read 14240 times)

Hesham

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« on: January 25, 2003, 09:51:04 am »

Michael, Thanks for taking the time to make that comparison. I have been wishing that somebody makes such a comparison for quite some time. A while back when you posted your article about "Pixel Count And Future Imaging Chips". I posted in this forum asking if the 11MP sensor is close to the resolving limits of Canon's best lenses, why are there higher MP sensors made for larger format especially that lenses made for medium format are probably less sharp that those of the 35mm format?
I think comparison article may come close to answering my question. Right now it seems to me that as digital comes closer to being able to closely depict the smallest detail lenses can resolve, it will have far exceeded film resolution/ enlargement performance at any of its formats. At that point a  good ressing up algorithm is all that is needed to get the enlargement size even film large  format can provide.
If we take 80 lp per mm  as the maximum resolution limit of most lenses and apply the Nyquist criteria (two photosites per line pair). A sensor with a photosite size of 6.25 microns is theoretically needed to match this resolution. This translates to 22MP  on a 36*24mm sensors. Again, the statement you mentioned in that pixel count is not likely going to increase by much is reasonable  We will probably be able to get this pixel in the next year and half or less. This is good because more energy is likely to be directed to other areas like improving the noise performance of sensors, dynamic range,  frame rate deceasing cost, investigating new technologies, exaimining smaller sensor sizes and better and smaller lenses, etc.
I think next PMA is going to be really exciting.
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Eric Trexler

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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2003, 03:01:01 pm »

Michael,

You now have me thinking about moving to a digital system.  I only have two things that are holding me back, cost (as you mentioned) and creativity.  The cost argument is self explanatory, but the creativity aspect is a personal thing for me.  

5 years ago when I first started shooting MF I found that my photography improved significantly.  I attribute this improvement not to a larger negative, but to heavier equipment, fewer frames per roll, and less automation.  My Mamiya MF gear forces me to slow down and think about my photography.  Before MF I had 36 frames per roll and a 5 frame per second motor drive that allowed me to forget the important aspects of photography, metering, the zone system, scanning the entire frame, and trying to visualize the final print.  For me this is a personal issue, I used to shoot 35mm like a machine gun on full automatic.  My Mamiya has forced me to slow down; I've been forced to think and I personally believe that I “see” better.

The piece is a great technical analysis between leading edge digital and MF offerings, unfortunately for me, I must decide between better technical output and "seeing."  For now the decision is easy because of price.  In a few years or less I may be forced to overcome my personal issues and try to continue "seeing" with equipment that will allow me to slip into old habits if I allow it to.

Eric
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billthom

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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2003, 04:34:20 pm »

Am also considering moving from my Leicas to the D1s.  I do large files but would like to see a comparison between the D1s and medium format digital with the kodak back (for untethered working); ideally the H1 or Contax system for excellent lenses.
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scubastu

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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2003, 12:21:23 pm »

Michael,

Great article and I totally agree with your findings.  I've been working with scanned images for 14  years...as a professional capturing images for my client's archival, engineering and mapping use (I've been using 360MB b/w drum scans of satellite images for years).  I always have to worry about dust etc...

The quality and depth of digital images coming from the current crop of DSLR's are amazing.  A 180ppi image from a D60 will look better than a 4000 dpi scan of 100VS on my Canon FS4000!  

My main interest is shooting underwater images, large expanses of blue or black in the image....film grain just sucks!   However, for underwater, I still shoot film due to the lack of true wide angle and TTL flash capability. I also put together slide shows or my underwater , it's easier (and cheaper) to use slides than beg/borrow/steal a high quality digital projector....this is where I think a digital still loses out, but for print sales, web use and pretty much any other use of images, digital rules.

Thanks again for a great site!

Stu  
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BJL

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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2003, 09:49:25 am »

Quote
There are many advantages to EVF's.  They're seldom too dark, unlike optical units.  I don't like what I see in the few digicams that use them, but they have a lot to offer if implemented well.

You see exactly what you're going to get.  Colour, noise, exposure are all WSISYG.  

You can have a wide variety of additional information on tap.  A continuous, onscreen histogram, for example.

Focus can be difficult.  Especially with critical DOF adjustments and wide angle lenses.

They also consume power.
I am curious about the potential of EVF's (meaning the ones that are used like a traditional viewfinder and so can offer a similarly big bright image, not the tiny TV's an the back of the camera), as I see the possibility that they will one day combine the best of the SLR and rangefinder approaches.

1) About the one mentioned disadvantage, focusing difficulty, one potential advantage not discussed so far is the possibility of digital zooming at the focal point for focus check, and also, when using a tripod, scrolling around a highly magnified image to check focus, lighting, color and such at various parts of the image. I can imagine that this could some day work better than most traditional viewfinders for slow deliberate composition. However two-eyed photographers (fans of ground glass viewfinders) might prefer being able to scroll around a magnified image on the "camera back TV".

2) Another advantage only implied by previous messages is the elimination of the extra shutter delay, viewfinder blackout and vibration due to mirror movement. (A few SLR's do this with a fixed half-reflecting mirror, wasting some light though.)

3) Finally EVF's can avoid the undersized and/or dim viewfinder images of DSLR's that use 35mm format lenses but smaller than 35mm sensor sizes (which I think will be around in the lower end of the interchangeable lens digital market for at least a few more model cycles).

4) Relatedly, I suspect that the forthcoming 4/3 system might have to use EVF's to get adequate viewfinder brightess for low light work; can anyone comment on how well the Olympus E-10/E-20n optical SLR viewfinder with half-mirror handles low light?

5) About power consumption; I get good battery life despite using my LCD for most photos, by being careful about turning it off when not in use; wouldn't that be true with EVF's too? For example, have them activated by a half-press on the shutter release and turn off automatically after a brief period of idleness, as with most film camera electronics?
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paul

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2003, 12:47:17 pm »

i guess, what i tried to say was that i would like to see a comparison between high end digital backs, latest high end digital SLR and drum scans....if the digital SLRs are better then scanned MF, how good must the digital backs be?
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Erik M

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2003, 08:31:30 pm »

Michael,

I enjoyed your ultimate shootout article and agree with your results. But one aspect of digital that has aways nagged me is projection. I'm currently able to give awesome 645 slide shows with my Rollei MF slide projector with my glass mounted slides; however, any digital slide shows I've seen given with an InFocus or Epson LCD projector look like a cheap TV compared to a properly projected MF slide.

Do you know of any projectors that can do justice to high end digital? Or because these projectors are mainly aimed at the corporate market do you think that digital projection is really something that will never take off, and that the digital print is really the main thing, so to speak?

I know my fixation on projection is a bit off topic, but a proper slide show can be quite magical if done properly and done for an audience that cares. It's something I'd hate to give up.
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Marshal

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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2003, 11:35:41 pm »

Doug:

I saw somehwere at Rob Galbraith's site a while back a comparison someone had done with a 1Ds shot of a house and a 4X5 shot of the same house taken with Velvia that was as close to whatever lens had been used on the Canon. Whew, out of breath. Anyway, the result was similar to Michael's Ultimate Shootout against the Pentax 67. I don't remember what 4X5 capable scanner had been used or at what resolution.

I do remember that in comparing the two, the 4X5 was ever so slightly sharper or more crisp. By a hair. In grain however, same story as with Michael's tests. Even 4X5 had a lot more grain or noise then the 1Ds.

The best way I can describe it is that the 4X5 won on sharpness by only one point, while the 1Ds won on grain(or lack thereof)by two touchdowns and extra points.
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william

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2003, 11:10:36 am »

My real world results with a Rollei 6008i system (w. Schneider lenses) and a Canon 1Ds, printing on an Epson 2200 have largely mirrored Michael's.  Here's the caveat -- "for color prints."  Here's my question for Michael or others using a 1Ds and medium format: are you satisfied that the 1Ds equals or surpasses film (even 35mm, for purposes of this question) in terms of tonality and subtle gradation for black and white prints?  There's just something about the converting color digital files to black and white, using any technique, that just doesn't do it for me.  The resulting prints generally look like they came, at best, from chromogenic black and white film (which I don't like).  I've started using imaging factory's Convert to B&W Pro, and am getting better results.

These issue for B&W are really what has kept me from selling my medium format equipment.  Gratnted, it has stayed int he camera bag since I got the 1Ds, but I worry about that one prize-winning B&W shot that would have been spectacular using the Rollei but only mediocre w. the 1Ds.
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Dennis

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2003, 12:09:08 pm »

Quote
It struck me that there is a major flaw in the ultimate shootout: at 255 dpi with the 1Ds, that maxes out the resolution of the Epson 2200. Basically, there's no way to put more information on the paper. So, a priori, there's no way that MF will win.

(Also note that 255 dpi from a 1Ds is slightly smaller than 11x16. Were you are printing on standard A3 (11.75" x 16.5") paper with a small margin???)

It is pretty amazing that the 1Ds produces definitive photographic images at 11x14. I was never able to get decent 11x14s from 35mm (Plus-X) in the darkroom.

However, the claim that the 1Ds has more resolution than 6x7 seems seriously problematic.

If you printed a 4000 dpi scan of 6x7 at 450 dpi, you'd have about the same size image (about 18" in the short direction) as when you print a 1Ds image at 150 dpi. My experience is that 450 dpi printed film scans are a lot sharper with a lot more detail than 150 dpi printed digital images (including dowloaded 1Ds samples).
Dear Michael,

First I want to say, how much I admire your work and enjoy your site.

Somehow, after reading your shootout, I had the feeling, its pure goal was just to show how good the 1Ds is. Everything is so straight. Your 1Ds Field Report seemed to me to be more "neutral".

In that report you end up with "in terms of resolution, our final conclusion is that while it's very close, medium format still has a slight edge in this area". In the Con's corner you mention grain, sharpness, equipment. Even in your conclusion, there's no talk of a margin, it sound's more like a equilibrium thing to me. Your shootout starts with "The 1Ds surpassed my Pentax 645nii system by a considerable margin". Hm.

In the Field Report you compare the Data itself, which IMHO is the fairest way. Now you compare prints! Their quality is not limited by the available data but by the output medium (printer). The only conclusion can be, that a print in the size xy from a 1Ds meets the quality of a MF's (if it is not limited by a scanner, as shown in the drum scan section).

I don't understand your point of view. Heck, when I watch an image appropriately sized to my 20" CRT, a coolpix 990 meets MF! It is undoubtly remarkable, that the 1Ds is capable to produce high quality A3's. It leaves 35mm in the dust. In concerns of grain it rules. Mobility and variety of equipment is hardly competable. And up to A3 they deliver the same quality.

In pre-1Ds days there was a point, where you said (going for pure resolution): Ok, for this size prints I have to leave 6x7 and go for 4x5" (or whatever). And this is the size you have to compare. If the 1Ds rules there, it rules 6x7. Otherwise there is a region, where the 1Ds just doesn't meet 6x7 (which would be no blame!).

By the way, you confused some readers claiming about missing window bars in the grain section crops. The crops are different. If you overlay, you see that the right building's windows are quite different.

Best regards

Dennis.

Please excuse obscure expressions, I'm just a Kraut.
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tom guffey

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2003, 12:15:31 pm »

Mike,
Good morning.  I agree completely with your article.  I've shot 35mm, 4 x5, and panoramic 617 for years.  I've had the D30, then the D60, Now it's the D1 and the EOS1Ds.  I got the 1Ds at Thanksgiving and have shot all my assignments with it.  If I do a 4 x 5 shot , or a panormainc layout, I did the same series with the EOS1Ds to keep some comparitive notes.  I got interested in the digital side about 4 years ago, since I also shot Canon 35mm, with most of the L series lens.  I also  do my own large format printing on the espon 1280, 2220 and the new 7600.  The testing methodology and printing series, along with the drum scans are very similar to what you'd done.  I can also do a very nice 24 x36 with a some USM and it is very difficult to see the differences between what was being done with a drum scan vs. a worked raw file.  I just recently sold my 4 x 5 system, and also sold off my EOS1V bodies.  Haven't shot film in about 7 months, and the digital side - whether anyone want to believe it or not - is truely hard to beat !

It can only continue to get better.  Anyone who doesnt believe it, should rent a high end digital for an upcoming assignment, and then take a long, serious look at the results.  If they dont come to a similar conculsion - they will be passed by their competitors, becasue of their lack of acceptentacnce of where the market is really going.
Thanks, Tom
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Bill Janes

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2003, 11:55:06 am »

I read Michael’s Ultimate Shootout article with great interest and agree with his conclusion that, for his workflow, the D1s is clearly superior to medium format Velvia scans. The ensuing posts on the discussion forum confirm Michael’s prediction that no matter what he does, some nit picker will suggest some additional tests.

However, I think that David Littleboy’s observation that the tests were limited by the resolution of the Epson 2200 printer is very well taken. Michael’s friend, Norman Koren, has performed an impressive scientific analysis of printer resolution:

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF3.html

His research on the Epson 1270 printer shows that for 4000 dpi Provia scanned images, the printer’s “Response above 190 lp/in is mostly aliasing—garbage”. He concludes that there is no reason to send more than 300 dpi to the printer. I downloaded his resolution target for 4000 dpi Provia scans (since this is what I use) and printed the targets on my Epson 2200 and observed the same findings. I encourage readers to do the same. To give the medium format scan a proper evaluation not limited by the printer, I think that Michael should print the Provia scanned image (cropped, of course) so that the image sent to the printer at 200 dpi, well below the limitation of the printer.

He then should res up the Canon image and print under the same conditions. Since I don’t have the 1Ds or drum scanned medium format images I can’t rise to Michael’s challenge to back my assertion with hard data, but I think that my impression is backed by the above considerations.

It would also be useful if he posted cropped images from the two cameras at full resolution so that we could examine the images at 1 to 1 pixel representation on our own computers. Viewing of images at screen resolution of less than 1:1 can result in severe aliasing, which is easily seen when viewing Norman’s chart with Photoshop.

The most important conclusion that I reach from Michael’s tests is that perceived sharpness is more related to contrast and low noise than resolution. The 1Ds must give very good MTF at its relatively low resolution (Nyquist frequency of 57 lp/mm). Scientific analysis of image sharpness is very interesting, but the theory must be confirmed by observations such as Michaels.  

I wish I could afford the 1Ds, but I will have to stick to 4000 dpi scans of Provia or Velvia for the time being.

Bill Janes
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Rich

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Michael's Ultimate Shootout
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2003, 01:58:31 pm »

Hope you can find time to read all this:

I did think that was an excellent article, you must have very similar objectives as myself. I use 6x9 format and would welcome a camera such as the Canon EOS-1Ds if it gives a superior image. However I really have trouble understanding the physics of this, not that I don't agree with your results. How can in just a few years, film, with all it's improved grain/sharpness that has gradually improved since the 80's suddenly be bettered 'over night' by digital sensor technology? I can't imagine how you can make a pixel smaller than a grain on film, or maybe this is not necessarily the case? Tends to make the film companies look a bit stupid.

Talking about stupid, how am I going to look now, with my trypod and huge camera set up on location, only to be bettered by some 'kid' next to me with the latest 'teckno toy'. I don't really have an argument in favour of 120 anymore. Of course exactly the same thing happened with the Reel to Reel tape recorder. A Revox was a 'God like' object of desire for it's quality of build and sound, only to be bettered by some black box with a 'CDR' label on the front. Now 'overnight' nobody has heared of a Revox. It's a shame this happens but it IS progress and in the case of the Canon EOS-1Ds  if the end result IS far better then my 120 cameras then there is no argument.

I take Landscapes myself and must say it is the skies that are always grainy/patchy/disappointing when scanned. This wasn't something I got with an enlarger for some reason ( I'm using the Minolta Scan Multi Pro). Digital is beautifully clean and noise free, and if this is a measure of quality by itself, a 3 or 5MP camera is better than 120 film. It's a bit like CD, who cares if the actual sound may not be a good as a vinyl LP, the lack of noise is such a quality in itself that it becomes the dominant quality. But the Canon seems to score on both counts, lack of noise and better resolution.

I find it fascinating that we are now looking at the limit of the lens resolution rather than the sensor being the limiting factor. Of course 135 always had the highest resolving lenses. 120 and 4x5 had respectively lower resolution as in theory it wasn't necessary to have the resolution of 135 as the enlargement factor would be less. I still think there will be an advantage in having a larger or higher MP sensor even if the lenses resolve the same. More pixels will improve the apparent sharpness as it improves the edge acutance. The contrast between light and dark will be improved. But what is the limit?

To my mind we almost need to determine what is an absolute limit the healthy eye can resolve at any distance to the paper, to establish an absolute resolution goal. To me you can't beat a contact print, and a 8x10 contact must be the ultimate print in terms of sharpness and quality. I can't believe you could better that or want to. I somehow don't think the new kid on the block, the Canon EOS-1Ds could produce a print this good? (or could it?) If it doesn't, we need to work on why it's not so good (including printer technology) with an aim to produce something that is as good as this reference.

I tend to print up to 24x16 and I have now just realised from your articles, that my goal will never be realised (or can it?). I would like to look up close at a 24x16 and see sharp petals on flowers in the foreground or basically sharp small detail (say sub 1mm). I now realise this is impossible to achieve as a lens could never be this good. I would like to see a 24x16 of  'contact' print quality.

How do we improve the Canon? I would like to see a rangefinder design. It would be smaller, have superior lenses with better distortion figures. Who needs an SLR now? The lenses need to be bigger and heavier and be compromised in design because of that mirror. Who needs an optical viewfinder anymore, where you have to squeeze your head up close to stare sideways into a hole, with your nose squashed against the back?

Nobody seems to have mentioned a huge digital advantage. Perfect 'film' flatness at last! This has cured the problem totally and must really help to improve the technical geometry/distortion figures especially if architectural photography is your thing.

Another BIG advantage, again not mentioned. A 135 camera has inherently far better depth of field for any given f stop than a larger format camera and that always will be the case. This is a quality which will always better medium format or larger format cameras (excluding movements). So from this point of view it is great to stick to 135 format or smaller. Chromatic aberration was always more of a problem for 'sub miniature' camera lenses and so was micro contrast. Reducing the image by so much onto such a small 'sensor' does bring it's physical problems. I would imagine most of these dilemmas have now been overcome by todays lens manufactures.

I would now like to see Foveon do a full frame sensor. Their design seems the way to go even though the Sigma SD9 has not had great reviews, early days still?

I see dirty sensors being a problem with all that lens swopping going on. Film at least provides a fresh clean 'sensor' with each shot. Also how long will a digital sensor last? 2 , 3 years? Pixel dropout? How about upgradeable sensors?

Anyway great stuff - Rich
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John Hollenberg

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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2003, 07:55:34 pm »

Michael,

I thought the review was very interesting, as far as it went.  The only thing missing is comparison of larger print sizes.  The size of the 1Ds print was apparently 16 inches wide by 10.7 inches, assuming no cropping of the frame.  What about 12X18 (I know, the aspect ratio of the Pentax 67 would not allow printing the
whole photo on Epson 2200)? 16X24?  20X30?  The real question for many is, "At what print size (if any) does the Pentax 67 print show more detail than the 1Ds?"  I realize that you did the comparison based on print sizes you use, but it sure would be nice to have the comparison of large print sizes.
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Joe Decker

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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2003, 01:01:55 am »

Michael,

Just wanted to thank you for the review, I greatly appreciate it.  Money's a little tight for a 1Ds right now, but as soon as it's practical, I will leave film behind entirely.  (Your review was not the only research I did, of course, but it was the final nail in the coffin.)

Joe
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BJL

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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2003, 09:16:26 pm »

Quote
[1] I can't imagine how you can make a pixel smaller than a grain on film, or maybe this is not necessarily the case? Tends to make the film companies look a bit stupid.

[2] To my mind we almost need to determine what is an absolute limit the healthy eye can resolve at any distance to the paper, to establish an absolute resolution goal.
On [1] Pixels do not need to be as small as grains, since a single pixel conveys a lot more information than a single silver grain, which is genuinely either black or white, no shades of gray (one bit output!). For example, a medium size digital photosite (6.8 microns) can produce an output signal of 0 to 50,000 electrons with an error of about 20, giving about 2500 distinguishable levels of gray; several thousand silver halide crystals would be needed to give the same tonal gradations, based on what fraction of them get exposed to silver grains, and I have read that not than many crystals fit into a square of the size of that photosite.

On [2], there is a traditional guideline: the definition of 20/20 vision is resolving features down to an angular size of one minute of arc, or in other words, resolving details whose size is a bit less than 1/3000 of the viewing distance. So about 1/300 inch at 10 inches, or for readers outside of the US, 1/12mm at 25cm. Probably related to this is the resolution standard of about 12 pixels/mm required of digital files for input to some high quality commercial typesetting equipment.

Of course some people have better than 20/20 vision; maybe up to twice as good.
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Peter McLennan

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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2003, 12:05:14 am »

Robert queried the viability of electronic viewfinders in cold weather.  I've used EVF's of various kinds at minus 30 with no ill effects, other than my breath freezing on the VF : )

Seriously, I don't think cold weather is a problem.

There are many advantages to EVF's.  They're seldom too dark, unlike optical units.  I don't like what I see in the few digicams that use them, but they have a lot to offer if implemented well.

You see exactly what you're going to get.  Colour, noise, exposure are all WSISYG.  

You can have a wide variety of additional information on tap.  A continuous, onscreen histogram, for example.

Focus can be difficult.  Especially with critical DOF adjustments and wide angle lenses.

They also consume power.

Peter
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2003, 08:58:37 pm »

I don't have a lot of experience with projection. I gave a seminar earlier this week and used a rented Epson 1200 lumen projector at 1280 PPI for about 50 people, and the images were very nice. But, not up to those from a high quality slide projector.

It's something I plan on exploring more closely in the months ahead, as I have a number of seminars coming up and I'm planning on buying my own projector at some point.

Michael
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davidjl

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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2003, 12:23:20 am »

It struck me that there is a major flaw in the ultimate shootout: at 255 dpi with the 1Ds, that maxes out the resolution of the Epson 2200. Basically, there's no way to put more information on the paper. So, a priori, there's no way that MF will win.

(Also note that 255 dpi from a 1Ds is slightly smaller than 11x16. Were you are printing on standard A3 (11.75" x 16.5") paper with a small margin???)

It is pretty amazing that the 1Ds produces definitive photographic images at 11x14. I was never able to get decent 11x14s from 35mm (Plus-X) in the darkroom.

However, the claim that the 1Ds has more resolution than 6x7 seems seriously problematic.

If you printed a 4000 dpi scan of 6x7 at 450 dpi, you'd have about the same size image (about 18" in the short direction) as when you print a 1Ds image at 150 dpi. My experience is that 450 dpi printed film scans are a lot sharper with a lot more detail than 150 dpi printed digital images (including dowloaded 1Ds samples).
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2003, 11:54:00 am »

Try Calculations in PS
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