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masameet

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PB heat and LR 2.5
« on: October 02, 2009, 01:07:09 pm »

Hi, all!

Recently installed LR 2.5 on my PowerBook 1.67 Ghz 2 GB RAM.

LR 2.5 says it requires 1 GB RAM to work optimally. But whenever I check Activity Monitor, my available memory is down to 400 MB  and LR seems to be moving at molasses speed. And of course the PB's processors are reaching 160º F and above, with the fan madly fanning away.

When importing RAW files I limit the process to about 12 images at a time and when my PB's temperature is below 118º F.

If you have a similar problem with your laptops, what are you doing to minimize heat buildup?

TIA.
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jpegman

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« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 07:18:04 pm »

Don't use a Powerbook, but have you considered that the CPU in your laptop is loaded with dust and lint? I had a similar problem about a month ago on a desktop PC where the CPU would run so hot that it automatically reduced it's core frequency - which made whatever program was running screech to  a crawl.

I would have to pause a compression process in the middle, give the CPU cool off time (10-20 seconds) and continue at full speed for another 30-60 seconds. Like you, ingesting or processing a large batch of images in LR would start out full speed, and come to a crawl in a short time, and I would have to wait "forever" for it to complete.

At the time I didn't know what the problem was.  Eventually, I asked the right question on google and one of the search posts suggested CPU overheating. I opened my desktop (granted. lot easier than a laptop) and found the CPU heat sink literally loaded with dust and lint - any I just built my PC 18 moths ago!

I cleaned everything out, restarted the PC, and everything runs at full speed all the time. I'm not sure how you can clean out the PB, but, I found a link on google to show me how to open my Sony Vaio to replace the HD (with a bigger one), and the CPU and heat sink was next to the Hitachi HD. Maybe, one of the apple stores or apple dealers offers PB cleaning services.

Jpegman
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masameet

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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2009, 09:44:35 pm »

Quote from: jpegman
Don't use a Powerbook, but have you considered that the CPU in your laptop is loaded with dust and lint? I had a similar problem about a month ago on a desktop PC where the CPU would run so hot that it automatically reduced it's core frequency - which made whatever program was running screech to  a crawl.

I would have to pause a compression process in the middle, give the CPU cool off time (10-20 seconds) and continue at full speed for another 30-60 seconds. Like you, ingesting or processing a large batch of images in LR would start out full speed, and come to a crawl in a short time, and I would have to wait "forever" for it to complete.

At the time I didn't know what the problem was.  Eventually, I asked the right question on google and one of the search posts suggested CPU overheating. I opened my desktop (granted. lot easier than a laptop) and found the CPU heat sink literally loaded with dust and lint - any I just built my PC 18 moths ago!

I cleaned everything out, restarted the PC, and everything runs at full speed all the time. I'm not sure how you can clean out the PB, but, I found a link on google to show me how to open my Sony Vaio to replace the HD (with a bigger one), and the CPU and heat sink was next to the Hitachi HD. Maybe, one of the apple stores or apple dealers offers PB cleaning services.

Jpegman

Thanks for your reply.

Recently had a new internal hard drive installed. I guess I'll call the installer sometime Monday to see if he cleared out any dust in my PB.
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CatOne

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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2009, 11:22:33 pm »

Quote from: masameet
Thanks for your reply.

Recently had a new internal hard drive installed. I guess I'll call the installer sometime Monday to see if he cleared out any dust in my PB.

It's actually more likely that the CPU thermal paste has dried up, and is no longer conducting heat well from the CPU to the heat sync.  That can cause it to run extra hot, pretty quickly.  I do not believe dust and lint would be a problem in a laptop.

Really, though, given the new machines are probably 5x or more faster with LR than your 1.67, it may be time to think about an upgrade.  Every dollar you spend upgrading that machine is another you could have saved toward something a lot faster.
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jpegman

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2009, 03:10:47 pm »

Quote from: CatOne
It's actually more likely that the CPU thermal paste has dried up, and is no longer conducting heat well from the CPU to the heat sync.  That can cause it to run extra hot, pretty quickly.  I do not believe dust and lint would be a problem in a laptop.

Really, though, given the new machines are probably 5x or more faster with LR than your 1.67, it may be time to think about an upgrade.  Every dollar you spend upgrading that machine is another you could have saved toward something a lot faster.

You must live somewhere other than earth. The fastest MBPro has a 3.06Ghz processor, which is about 1.8x faster than the OP, not 5x.

This is the first time I heard of thermal paste drying out (it's designed to be permanent, so long as the bond isn't disturbed), but if that is the case, I think that while cleaning out the lint and dust, one could check on the thermal paste if it was an issue.

BTW, why do you think that dust and lint would not be a problem in a laptop? The laptop sucks air in and blows it out, it has vents and fins just like a desktop, and probably is exposed to dirtier environments during its travel life than a desktop. And yes, it is a known problem for others.

Jpegman
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CatOne

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2009, 04:15:55 pm »

Quote from: jpegman
You must live somewhere other than earth. The fastest MBPro has a 3.06Ghz processor, which is about 1.8x faster than the OP, not 5x.

Jpegman

You apparently forgot that the new MacBook Pros have dual-core processors as well.  If you went just on CPU power alone, you're talking 3.6x.  And the graphics card (GPU) is probably 10x faster, maybe more.

There are a number of other things that go into it (including 7200 RPM drives in the new machines, as an option, bus speeds, more cache on the CPU, etc); I can assure you that the newest machines are SUBSTANTIALLY faster than the PPC machines were.

CPU past may be "designed" be permanent, but I can assure you there are times when the paste or the thermal pad that the PowerBooks use have lost effectiveness after 4 1/2 years.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 04:16:19 pm by CatOne »
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Andrew Fee

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2009, 06:20:13 pm »

Quote from: jpegman
You must live somewhere other than earth. The fastest MBPro has a 3.06Ghz processor, which is about 1.8x faster than the OP, not 5x.
There is much more to processors than simply the clockspeed. For a start, the MacBook Pros are dual-core machines, so it's effectively two 3.06GHz processors in there.
 
But the clockspeed doesn't determine the actual speed of the CPU. This is all quite simplified, but you might have a 1.5GHz CPU that can do three instructions per cycle, and a 3GHz one that can do one instruction per cycle. While the first CPU is only running at 1.5GHz, it's effectively doing the same amount of work as a 4.5GHz version of the second CPU.
 
The Core2 chips are much faster than the old G4 CPUs per clock, and they're running at a faster clockspeed. The difference should definitely be a lot more than 1.8/3.6x.
 
 
I imagine the reason the Powerbook is heating up so much is simply because it's an old computer struggling to run Lightroom and will be running with the CPU maxed out most of the time. Even my 2.4GHz MacBook Pro runs hot with Lightroom because it's a very processor-intensive application.
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jpegman

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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 02:55:10 pm »

Quote from: Andrew Fee
There is much more to processors than simply the clockspeed. For a start, the MacBook Pros are dual-core machines, so it's effectively two 3.06GHz processors in there.
 
But the clockspeed doesn't determine the actual speed of the CPU. This is all quite simplified, but you might have a 1.5GHz CPU that can do three instructions per cycle, and a 3GHz one that can do one instruction per cycle. While the first CPU is only running at 1.5GHz, it's effectively doing the same amount of work as a 4.5GHz version of the second CPU.
 
The Core2 chips are much faster than the old G4 CPUs per clock, and they're running at a faster clockspeed. The difference should definitely be a lot more than 1.8/3.6x.
 
 
I imagine the reason the Powerbook is heating up so much is simply because it's an old computer struggling to run Lightroom and will be running with the CPU maxed out most of the time. Even my 2.4GHz MacBook Pro runs hot with Lightroom because it's a very processor-intensive application.

Give me a break-dual core does not mean 2x fast! a 3.06 is a 3.06. If the application can use more than one core,  the second core will speed up the process, but everything in Lightroom supports multi core processing. Yes, newer PC have faster RAM, video cards, etc. 5x is unbelievable. If you go to Tom hardware, you find that the fasted CPU's today, have much less than 2x a speed boost over CPU's a few years ago, and it relly only shows up in multithreaded apps.

The point was the OP wanted to know what was wrong with his PC (sorry a Mac is still a PC), and telling him to buy a new one was kind of a cop out by people pushing new hardware, to make a simplistic point I don't know what the OP  situation is and whether he is even considering spending $$$ on a new PBPro, but his problem seemed to be similar to mine and that is what I responded to.

BTW, if your MacBook Pro runs "Hot" with Lightroom under load, maybe it needs thermal help.  What do you define as "hot"?

My dual core 2.7Ghz desktop, now that it was cleaned out and new thermal paste applied, runs at 80deg F when idling, and under continuous full (100%) load on both cores for say 30 minutes while compressing a DVD size file, with LR, compression, or PhotoshopCS4 , it still runs at under 90 degF. If you don't think a +10 deg CPU rise is too hot, then maybe there is something going on in you MacBook that is abnormal and you must have a really abnormal high temperature rise under full load - I think this small a rise would just be perceptible and you might not even be able to feel it without a CPU thermal utility telling you the actual CPU base temperature. Does you MacBook monitor the CPU temperature?

Jpegman
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CatOne

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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 05:06:07 pm »

Quote from: jpegman
Give me a break-dual core does not mean 2x fast! a 3.06 is a 3.06. If the application can use more than one core,  the second core will speed up the process, but everything in Lightroom supports multi core processing. Yes, newer PC have faster RAM, video cards, etc. 5x is unbelievable. If you go to Tom hardware, you find that the fasted CPU's today, have much less than 2x a speed boost over CPU's a few years ago, and it relly only shows up in multithreaded apps.

For properly multi-threaded applications, dual core _does_ mean twice as fast.  Lightroom supports multi-core processing, and the new 3.06's have twice as many cores as the PPC machines did.

Look, the latest Intel machines are WAY FASTER than the PPC laptops that are 4 years old now.  Hey, try making 15 different edits (including localized edits) on a set of 50 photos and exporting them, on both machines and see what the difference is.

The fastest CPUs today (the latest 2.93 GHz Quad-core Xeons) are definitely more than 2x faster than the 3.4 GHz Pentium 4's, when you have the right applications (ones that have tasks that can run in parallel).  Apparently you haven't been paying attention.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 08:35:17 am »

Quote from: masameet
LR 2.5 says it requires 1 GB RAM to work optimally. But whenever I check Activity Monitor, my available memory is down to 400 MB  and LR seems to be moving at molasses speed.

Meeting the minimum RAM specification just means that the program will run without crashing or aborting with an out of memory error. It doesn't mean that the program will run quickly or efficiently.

Quote
And of course the PB's processors are reaching 160º F and above, with the fan madly fanning away.

When importing RAW files I limit the process to about 12 images at a time and when my PB's temperature is below 118º F.

If you have a similar problem with your laptops, what are you doing to minimize heat buildup?

The suggestion to check the CPU heat sink and other components in the cooling system for dust/lint buildup is a good one. The heat sink thermal paste deterioration theory is possible, but highly unlikely unless you've dropped your laptop or otherwise done something to momentarily jar the heat sink loose from the CPU.

JPEGman, you should refrain from dispensing advice or otherwise pontificating about technology until you have a better grasp of the subject matter. There are many factors that affect overall execution speed besides CPU clock speed and core count. While it is true that CPU clock speeds haven't increased by much more than a factor of two in the last several years, there are many other factors that are involved that have increased the average number of instructions executed per clock cycle by a much greater margin:

1. Newer CPUs have more internal cache RAM than older models, so they spend less time waiting for data to be loaded from slower system RAM.

2. Memory bus speeds have increased, so loading data from system RAM takes less time than it used to.

3. Newer CPUs use more parallel execution, predictive execution, and other optimization/acceleration techniques than older ones, so that they can execute multiple instructions per core per clock cycle, or at least need fewer clock cycles to execute a single instruction.

4. Newer system designs support multiple CPUs and processing cores more efficiently than older ones, so that doubling the number of cores comes much closer to doubling overall system performance. Memory bus speed and other factors are less of a performance bottleneck.

5. Peripheral speeds, such as hard drive read/write speed, have increased significantly, and the newer chipsets involved put less of a load on the CPU than older ones. This is probably as significant as all the other factors combined, especially when performing memory-intensive tasks (which require a lot of swap file read/writes) that also need to read and write to the hard drive. Batch processing RAWs in Lightroom is a perfect example.

Checking the thermal bonding of the heat sink to CPU and ensuring that air flow is not being blocked by dust bunnies is easily and inexpensively done. But if that doesn't make much of a difference, you're better off spending your money on a new laptop than trying to upgrade the old one.
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