The Cost of MF Digital

[SCQ]

I know that MF backs is pretty much the epitome of digital still photography right now, with insane products like the P65 commanding $40k+ and producing what no film smaller than an 8x10 can do. However, this is entirely out of reach for 99.999% of amateurs and it certainly is not aimed at such a market.

I've got quite an interest in digital MF - maybe because I like the way an old Hasselblad V handles, or because I just like being different from all the Canikon shooters out there. Looking at the options, it seems like older 16MP backs (often only usable tethered) still command $4-5000 despite being 4-5 years old. While I do not doubt their quality, probably producing files with dynamic range and sharpness that can easily rival a $7000 1Ds or D3x, do you think the cost of these things will ever depreciate to a level more people can afford?

As a student, the idea of a $10000 camera is ridiculous, and while digital MF is certainly above my league, I still would like one. Technology should keep advancing, and it would only make sense that these monsters come down in price over time. I suppose I'm only waiting/hoping for a back to drop to around $2k. I can deal with 16MP and having to tether it. I don't need 65mpx and ISO 3200 on the field with autofocus.

Just wondering if you forsee the cost of MF coming down anytime soon.

[jimgolden]

nope - b/c there is a whole slew of computer junk that you need too. and dont forget backups - in triplicate. the actual back is just the tip of the iceberg. again, just my humble opinion from someone who uses a back to make money every week...

[ThierryH]

You can find such older backs for less than this, usually the price for a 6/11/16 MPx back is around 2-3000.

Best regards,
Thierry

... it seems like older 16MP backs (often only usable tethered) still command $4-5000 despite being 4-5 years old.

[Christopher]

You can find such older backs for less than this, usually the price for a 6/11/16 MPx back is around 2-3000.

Best regards,
Thierry

Which in my opinion are no match for newer DSLRs, like a a850, 5dII, d700.

[ThierryH]

It depends, Christopher, you cannot generalize and put it this way.
It all depends the kind of work you are doing.

A 16 or 11 and even a 6 MPx multishot back is something MUCH different than any DSLR.

Best regards,
Thierry

Which in my opinion are no match for newer DSLRs, like a a850, 5dII, d700.

[Christopher]

It depends, Christopher, you cannot generalize and put it this way.
It all depends the kind of work you are doing.

A 16 or 11 and even a 6 MPx multishot back is something MUCH different than any DSLR.

Best regards,
Thierry

Well it certainly depends, but I really don't think that these old backs can compare when it comes to DR and noise. Detail and resolution might be fine.

I mean I love working with MF and LF, but I would if I had 3k-4k to spend never invest in such a low end MF system. I think a Canon 7D, d700 or a850, would be a lot better choice. If you have the camera and some lenses, we could start again. But starting from scratch, does not make sense in my eyes.

[ThierryH]

You should test it, what it means to shoot with a 6 MPx sensor in multishot mode, you would be surprised: There is no match, and not only details and resolution.
Again, IMO it makes sense for some and depending on what they shoot.

Best regards,
Thierry

Well it certainly depends, but I really don't think that these old backs can compare when it comes to DR and noise. Detail and resolution might be fine.

I mean I love working with MF and LF, but I would if I had 3k-4k to spend never invest in such a low end MF system. I think a Canon 7D, d700 or a850, would be a lot better choice. If you have the camera and some lenses, we could start again. But starting from scratch, does not make sense in my eyes.

[yaya]

I've just bought a D5000 which uses the same sensor and processor as the D300s (half the sensor of the D3X/ A900). The camera is a joy to use and the flip LCD is a nice feature.

At 12.3MP it is quite impressive in terms of DR, sharpness and detail and 800 iso or even 1600 iso are quite pretty (noisy but pretty).

But comparing these files at low iso to some old files from a Valeo 11 from 2003 (single shot, 24X36mm, 11 MP), they are inferior in every way.

If you spend 2-3K on an old back and slap it onto an old Blad. 1 Month later if you find it is not for you, you just sell it on...no loss and no harm done...

[E_Edwards]

You should test it, what it means to shoot with a 6 MPx sensor in multishot mode, you would be surprised: There is no match, and not only details and resolution.
Again, IMO it makes sense for some and depending on what they shoot.

Best regards,
Thierry

You are quite right, Thierry, I used to have a multishot 4040 Imacon, for still life, on a view camera, I would take this back today instead of any of the DSLRs (for still life). The quality was as good as any of the backs today, if used at it's 50 ISO setting. Admittedly fewer pixels and a little bit more cumbersome to use, but still very good.

Edward

[Christopher]

You are quite right, Thierry, I used to have a multishot 4040 Imacon, for still life, on a view camera, I would take this back today instead of any of the DSLRs (for still life). The quality was as good as any of the backs today, if used at it's 50 ISO setting. Admittedly fewer pixels and a little bit more cumbersome to use, but still very good.

Edward

I wanted to resist, but just couldn't. Especially after enjoying the other topic about DR.

So if a 6 year old back is still better than current top DSLRs, what went wrong with MFDBs ? Did kodak, Delsa, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Hassi, really sleep and missed to improof their backs ? Or is Nikon, Sony and canon just so much better and faster, because if we take the other topic, with it's 7 pages it is quite clear that current top backs are not any better than current DSLRs, except for resolution :-P

[ThierryH]

What you are missing, Christopher, is that LL is certainly a place to get ideas how and with what photographers work, but certainly doesn't give an entire picture of the reality: there are literally thousands of photographers working with MFDBs and who will continue to work with, even though they might have a DSLR as well.

As for your statement that current digital backs are not any better than current DSLRs, I prefer to live it to live tests rather than pages of theoretical blabla: for me it is not that clear at all. But it makes no sense to debate this any longer.

Best regards,
Thierry

I wanted to resist, but just couldn't. Especially after enjoying the other topic about DR.

So if a 6 year old back is still better than current top DSLRs, what went wrong with MFDBs ? Did kodak, Delsa, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Hassi, really sleep and missed to improof their backs ? Or is Nikon, Sony and canon just so much better and faster, because if we take the other topic, with it's 7 pages it is quite clear that current top backs are not any better than current DSLRs, except for resolution :-P

[SCQ]

While a comparison of current DSLRs and backs (new and old) is certainly valid, I am more interested in older backs in terms of price. While a D3X sensor is certainly one of the best - perhaps beating out a 5 year old back - it's really saying that a young man can beat out an old man in a race. However, my interest in a digital MF back is not merely sensor quality - in terms of price, I don't think anything offers a better value than a second hand 5D which can be had for around $1100. That said, there's a reason why I would like to use a digital MF back.

I quite like the handling of Hasselblad V's from my limited experience with them, and from my understanding, their glass is almost second to none.

I would be quite happy if I could put together a digital Hassie V for the price of a mid-range dSLR system. Of course, part of this is wishful thinking as backs are ridiculously expensive - but back to the original intent of the article - how long do you think I would have to wait before I could get an old V body and an under 20 mpx back for the price of a 5D and an L prime?

[ThierryH]

- perhaps beating out a 5 year old back -

Not necessarily true, by far not, depending on what you are doing.

how long do you think I would have to wait before I could get an old V body and an under 20 mpx back for the price of a 5D and an L prime?

You can already find a 6, 11 or even 16 MPx back for this price (without camera body).

Thierry

[rethmeier]

You can buy a Sinar eMotion 75LV used now for $8K Aussie.
2 years ago that was listed @ $47 K Aussie.

A bargain at $8K as it still is one of the best backs on the market.

[evgeny]

You can buy a Sinarback 54M for a $4500 today. It must be tethered to a macbook, but I always shot tethered in my studio, ever models and children.

[Imaginara]

I wanted to resist, but just couldn't. Especially after enjoying the other topic about DR.

So if a 6 year old back is still better than current top DSLRs, what went wrong with MFDBs ? Did kodak, Delsa, Phase, Leaf, Sinar and Hassi, really sleep and missed to improof their backs ? Or is Nikon, Sony and canon just so much better and faster, because if we take the other topic, with it's 7 pages it is quite clear that current top backs are not any better than current DSLRs, except for resolution :-P

Dynamic range and sensor information is the only thing that you really can compare medium format to small format (or Large format for that matter). The optical qualities in the different systems are totally different and that is something that has 0 to do with anything digital.

To call a 35mm sized system the same as a 6x7 (or 6x45) sized system is like trying to call a fiat a ferrari because they are both cars

Each system has its place and in the end its only different tools. You choose the tools for the image you wish to create, not the image after the tools (hopefully).

Just my $0.2 and i do shoot all 3 formats both digital and analog still.

[christian_raae]

Hasselblad  V96C 16mp Digital Back  + ImageBank     
1795.00
Very Good Condition (CPH) #IX04281043  C    
     
Hasselblad  V96C 16mp Digital Back  + ImageBank    
1795.00
Very Good Condition (MM) #IX05311013  SOLD    
     
The prices are british pounds.

Found at http://www.procentre.co.uk/secondhand_Equi...ml#hasselblad_h


These are tethered 36*36 backs.

[Doug Peterson]

Because if we take the other topic, with it's 7 pages it is quite clear that current top backs are not any better than current DSLRs, except for resolution :-P

You must be referring to the other topic where those who own or use digital backs are trying to convince those who only look at numeric readouts to actually go shoot a digital back in order to evaluate it.

[ThierryH]

... And guess what? Those silly little 24x36 mm sensors were (STILL are) even used on a technical view camera like the Sinar p2 or p3, with the same lens limitations, producing wonderful image quality, STILL TODAY.

All I am trying to say is: if one looks for a digital back around a 1'000 dollars, it is possible to get one, and the quality one gets out of it is STILL superior to any CURRENT DSLR, in multishot mode.

Best regards,
Thierry

I don't understand why anyone would try to defend the 6 and 11MP digital backs. These sensors are 24x36mm, so please someone explain what advantage are you gaining on a medium format camera system, none. You won't get the lens draw that larger formats exhibit.

[ctz]

Sorry, off topic.
A question for Thierry:
Is there anywhere (youtube, vimeo, etc) some demo video of Sinar Live View function.
I might be interested in Sinar 75LV but no chance of testing it in my country.

Thanks,
Ctz