Canon 30D 1.3X Factor

[svein]

It'll probably depend on the competition, but my guess (and it's only a guess) is that there wont be any more 1.3 crop factor dslr from Canon.
Too many product lines doesn't make sense. In a year the electronics will probably be fast enough to handle full frame at high enough speed for Canon can make only one 1D camera, and I'd be really surprised if they decided to keep the 1.3 crop and stop making full frame.
Don't think they'll stop making the 1.6 crop factor either, as that's necessary to be competitive (on price) with the Sony sensor 1.5 crop factor cameras.
Personally though, I'd like to see the full frame go and that the 1.3 was the high end. Makes sense to me. The lens quality problems/requirements are less at 1.3 than full frame at the wide end. But even more important, if Canon want a movable sensor for in-camera IS (similar to Minolta AS) then full frame has to go. 1.3 crop factor would allow a movable sensor, but of course not by the same amount as a 1.5 or 1.6 sensor. So, if Minolta is really successful, maybe we'll se this feature on Canon too.

[BJL]

I also agree that Canon is most likely to discontinue the 1.3x crop soon. It has been a wonderfully useful transitional measure that will go away once (a) they can get 8fps or faster out of a 35mm format sensor, and/or ( they can get good enough performance out of a 1.6x format camera, at least good enough for those who cannot afford option (a).

A SLR system for serious photographic use needs wide angle lenses designed for the sensor's format; using an expensive ultra-wide angle lens designed for a larger format and then croppng away half of the image to get only moderately wide angle coverage is a horrendously inefficient approach.

That is why Canon (like Nikon, Pentax etc.) has two series of wide angle lenses, for 35mm format and for 1.6x "EF-S" format. I cannot imagine them introducing yet another intermediate format series of wide angle lenses such as a 13-28mm ultra-wide zoom for 1.3x crop.

By the way, since there will always be some cost advantage to the smaller 1.6x format sensors and telephoto lenses, and it is already capable of results that are very good by the standards of a great proportion of SLR users, I expect it always to be there for a certain significant part of the photographic market. Canon has said as much; to paraphrase "35mm format for the pro level bodies, 1.6x for the rest".

[Stef_T]

I agree with you all that the 1.3x crop factor should should and will be gone soon enough. However, Imo, I do not think that having somply a consumer 1.6x crop line of cameras will be all that good for canon. From what I have heard, many journalists and especially sports photographers, like the crop on the 1D line, because of the extra speed and it gets them closer. Even if a full frame sensor could shoot as fast as a cropped one, then they'd still need bigger and larger lenses to get closer to the action. This would be slightly offset by the large amout of MP, so cropping in PS would be possible, but it still (IMO) wouldn't make up for the loss of the 1.6x crop.

[jd1566]

Some of our prayers will likely be answered in little less than a month, like some upgraded L primes and zooms...

However, a few points that I would like to mention.  Weren't reduced frame lenses are SUPPOSED to be less costly to produce.  Then why is a 10-22mm lens costing $800, more than a 17-40 f4 L when if first came out?  
As for the crop factor thing, the 1.3 crop factor camera means Canon is ahead of the other manufacturers, so I think it unlikely that they will abandon this sensor size, at least for a while.. They are consistently pushing the specs of their products further than their competitors.  While the 1Ds/1D scenario of two cameras with the "1" designation is unusual for Canon, and indeed will disapper as soon as a single camera is able to handle both functions, of fine image quality with fast frame rates, they still need to offer different products to different types of consumers.
Also, why would Canon throw away the 1.3 crop factor sensor idea, when it gives them a competitive advantage over the market?  We may well see an almost professional camera with this sensor size sporting future features of the next generation Eos1D cameras.  Remember that Pro's want a back-up camera and the 20D design, though good, is quite different in layout and use when compared to a 1 series..  There is room for a Eos 5 or Eos 3 digital version camera, I believe, and this will most likely have a 1.3 crop.

That, at least, is what I'm hoping for, but it'll be around or announced near the end of the year when the 1dII's lifespan will be complete.

As for our present goodies, whoever wasn't satisfied at Xmas time, less than a month to go and all will be revealed...

[giles]

My guess is that when Canon consolidates the 1 series into a single full-frame body (16+MP and 8+FPS) that a 1.3X digital EOS-3 will replace the 1D in Canon's lineup.

I think the 1.3x crop factor will be allowed to expire quietly.  It's neither full frame nor the 1.6x/1.5x crop factor that has become "standard" and can't use the EF-S lenses that are being developed.

I expect to see a digital "EOS-3" when Canon have a 12MP 1.6x sensor.  Such a body would be very competitive with Nikon's current top of the line models and would preserve Canon's feature spread across their model range: 8MP/12MP/16MP+ full frame.

Of course, my crystal ball has not been profiled so its accuracy is unknown. :-)

Giles

[BJL]

...  a 1.3X digital EOS-3 will replace the 1D in Canon's lineup.

What do you expect the Canon wide angle lens options would be for that "EOS-1.3D" body? New ones for the intermediate 1.3x sized image circle, or just accepting that wide angle coverage is limited and expensive? Or do you think that the EF-S lenses secretly cover that image circle, once an EF-S mount is provided?

A 1.3x crop reduces Canon's widest zoom lens to only the 35mm equivalent FOV of 21mm; not a great problem for the main EOS-1D target market, but a notable disadvantage for a more general purpose "EOS-3D".

[BJL]

A 1.3 crop factor is VERY desirable to them..

I will keep asking until someone answers: how big is the market for a digital EOS-3 if it has worse wide angle cropping limitations than Canon 1.6x, Nikon 1.5x or Olympus 4/3, which is the current situation for 1.3x?

I agree that digital counterparts of the EOS-3 and F100 are much awaited, but people will want good wide angle coverage for them.

[franxon]

Just for Laugh:

There will be 4 lines of Canon DSLRs in the 10 years to come (not much different from what we current have, as each has its reason of existence):

1D series:the beast performed by professionals, don't try at home. full frame workhorse, has everything you need and you don't need.

3D series: the rocket destructive. 1.3x, renamed 1D series. they will exist in a long run, in a less-feature-loaded-but-still-enough-for-most-pros-and-more-affordable format.

10D-20D-30D-...90D series: the cannon powerful:1.6x. The cannons will exist as long as the beasts will, they're meant for prosumers; so will the cropping factor. Many reasons for this 1.6x but I'll only point out one here: Canon is making EF-S mount lenses. They are committing suicide if they were to abandon the NEW mount in a foreseeable future.

100D-200D-300D-...-900D series: the rifle killing.1.6x too, entry level gears to quench your lust for shooting. Another reason for EF-S lenses and 1.6x cropping factor.

I always have a feeling that Canon has a severe difficulty naming their new modles. What will be the next to 1DsMKII? MKIII, MKIV to MKXX?

Just for laugh. The End.

[sider]

Hi all,

Do you think the next DSLR Canon model 30D (Probably) will have 1.3X Factor insread of present 1.6X Factor ?

I have the 10D and badly want the 20D, but if the 30D has the 1.3X Factor (speculation) than should I wait for the 30D (which is probably 12 month near) ?

Please assist with your thoughts...

Thank you,

Oren

[61Dynamic]

Like svein pointed out, that's not likely.

The only reason that there are two 1D digital cameras is due to limitations in tech/price. In the next two years it should be possable to get 1Ds Mk II and beyond quality at the speed of the 1D Mk II and so those two cameras will be merged into one full-frame, high-speed, high-end, hyphen-full product.

I doubt they'll be abandoning the 1.6 crop in their prosumer camera(s) anytime too soon. At least not untill it'll be cheap enough to put a full-frame sensor in a $1500 camera. If Canon makes no more EF-S lenses than what are out now, then the D40 may see full-frame but if they do make more EF-S lenses we may not see full-frame at $1.5K untill the D50. Of course that's pure speculation. It will probably end up that the pro-sumer cameras will be full-frame (as soon as that's affordable) with the EF-S cameras being the budget DSLR.

It's doubtfull that the D30 will be anything but 1.6x cropped.

[Sabercat04]

This discussion is almost reminiscent of Olympus' introduction of the half frame, then later the introduction of the APS format. Both were attractive in some ways, but both disappointed in terms of quality and enlargeability. Here the difference is that digital even with the 1.6 factor is very good. I predict it will stay around and will become significantly lighter and smaller so that it will be a very high quality camera with greater mobility that will be easier to travel with. I too would be very surprised if the 1.3 factor stays around even for the next version.

[BJL]

... many journalists and especially sports photographers, like the crop on the 1D line ... Even if a full frame sensor could shoot as fast as a cropped one, then they'd still need bigger and larger lenses to get closer to the action.

That makes sense; some other advantages that a smaller format might have for fast action photography are reduced shutter lag and higher flash sync speed, due to the smaller mirror and smaller distance to be covered by the shutter curtains. I believe that the Nikon D2H has the lowest shutter lag of any SLR so far: 37ms compared to 55ms for the fastest Canon.

So, Canon could follow Nikon in having in-sensor cropping; a sensor with the option of a faster read out of only a smaller central portion (but that is no help with shutter lag). Or they could follow Nikon by having professional level action photography oriented bodies in a smaller than 35mm format, like 1.6x (but Canon has indicated that this is not in their plans.)

[BJL]

why is a 10-22mm lens costing $800, more than a 17-40 f4 L when if first came out?

I can think of at least five reasons
- the main price advantage of smaller formats is in using less long, less heavy telephoto lenses; for ultra-wide angles, other factors besides the bulk of optical glass neeed are dominant in cost
-  the 10-22 has somewhat wider angle coverage on EF-S than the 17-40 does on 35mm
- the 17-40 MTF looks poor at the edges of the 35mm frame at 17mm; I suspect that this lens is at its best at 17mm only with the smaller format Canon DSLR's, where it give far less wide angle coverage than the 10-22
- the 17-40 has for now the volume advantage of selling to both EF-S and 35mm format cameras
- the 10-22 is newer, which tends to allow a higher price to be charged: the 17-40 was also $800 initially, befere dropping to its current $650 or so.

Altogether, too many differences to allow any generalizations about price differences between formats.

[Jonathan Wienke]

My guess is that when Canon consolidates the 1 series into a single full-frame body (16+MP and 8+FPS) that a 1.3X digital EOS-3 will replace the 1D in Canon's lineup.

[Jonathan Wienke]

Nor has mine...

[jd1566]

There are many "amature" shooters out there who crave a "reasonably" priced high-spec camera.  Once upon a time Canon offered these users a Eos 5 / A2 which had all the trappings of a professional camera but built with the consumer (prosumer?) in mind.  I suspect that this camera was highly successful for Canon, judging by how many are being offloaded on E-bay, available in KEH and other used stores.  Canon's next attempt was the Eos 3, which was more pro than prosumer but still satisfied the prosumer that wanted to control the camera, not the other way around.  

Now, what is a reasonable price and a reasonable pro-sumer spec?
The 1DII is now available for less that $4000 (ebay power sellers, B&H charges slightly more).  Most amatures that I know aren't into big speed guns, but rather privelige image quality.  So, a 11mp 1.3 crop factor camera with a build quality between the 20D and 1DII is not an impossible dream, but rather a question of when.  Also, where is Canon going to put all their trial technology for the next re-incarnation of the 1 series?  They always test if first on a lower end camera first.
A 1.3 crop factor is VERY desirable to them.. otherwise who will buy the Eos1, when all the features AND full-frame are in the second in line...  To put a great sensor into a 1.6 crop just doesn't do it for me and I suspect many other photographers.. 8 MP is quite good, and my limitation now is wide angle, not megapixels.  I can print up to A3+ with great image quality... I don't want to print on anything bigger because I don't have a bigger printer, and many others are also making do with A4 or A3... We want wide-angle, a bigger sensor, not (necessarily) more pixels
As for people who think there are too many digital models..  How many film models were available from Canon just last year?  1V, 3, 7, Rebel T series,  and the standard Rebel.  I count 5 models and pricepoints.  Nikon is talking of the same number of models available (or more probably announced!) in 2005.  I have just profiled my crystal ball, and it's saying more sooner rather than later, and 1.3 crop is here to stay (for the immediate future).

[Struppi]

I believe Canon will go on with 1.6 crop factor for the next models/years because they wouldn't develop lenses for just 2 different types of cameras.
Also 1D and 1Ds will merge in near future into 1 modell (maybe already 1D MkIII).
If there will be Canon cameras with 1.3 crop factor in the next years or not is will be a decision of their marketing department (maybe they've already decided). So if you think you want a Canon 3D (or similar) with crop 1.3 tell Canon all the ways (web, email, through your dealer, ...) you could imagine.