Thoughts on paper choice

[RandomJoe]

I am in the process of buying a Epson 9900
and im trying to nail down a base paper selection

I am only looking for papers available in 24" or 44" rolls
I plan on selling prints and so want to offer the best papers currently available
even if it means, being more expensive

Here is my selection so far

Glossy : Ilford Gold Fibre Silk

Matte: Moab Somerset Enhanced Velvet 330 or Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm

Watercolour ; Innova Cold Press Art

Canvas: Chromata White

please let me know what you think
or you could suggest a better choice

I would like to stick with 4 papers to cover most of my needs if possible

[pleverington]

You shouldn't limit yourself to only four "types" of paper. Just in matte's alone, you should have four types of surfaces to pick from IMO.


Glossy--  

Epson exhibition(soon to be everywhere in rolls),

Colorado glossy and satine--much cheaper exhibition look alike and gamut values, and in rolls,

Hahnemule fine art pearl,

museo silver rag.

On the cheap--Red River ultra Pro satin 2.0



Luster--

with so many wonderful fiber based glossy's around now, I don't pursue these. H. fine art pearl and the silver rag are close to a luster however. So is the red river satin 2.0  Still, lusters are nice for color, and I am not opposed to them, but prefer something like the exhibition or colorado stuff.

Red river artic polar luster is pretty sweet stuff,

Ilford galerie gold would have to top the list if you like the sandy-satin look.




Matte--

Premier art generations alise rag--bright white or natural ---for the best gamut volume and D max out there,

Premier art Velvet bright white --dead ringer for epson velvet, whose texture is perfect for creating extra detail in some pics--plus it's thicker and whiter than the epson stuff,

Hahnemules stuff--all of it, pick your texture for the intended purpose, Important when the name helps sales.

Lumijet white velvet, parchment, photo white are great but at a medium cost

Ink Jet Art  Iluminata watercolor 210--very inexpensive(.46 cents/sq ft), looks almost exactly like epson velvet but lighter and brighter. Wonderful for large print batces needing to be sold cheap.(not necessarily though--just a cheaper option if you need one)

Red River aurora natural and bright white-not so expensive(.56 cents/sf.) on larger rolls (yet is a rag paper, with or without oba's, Pretty good gamut).

Crane textured watercolor Rag--the heaviest texture watercolor I have seen. Also the pattern looks totaly random, therefore has that handmade look that takes one back hundreds of years in ambiance. I love it



Canvas

Breathing color Lyve, and for the colors of a saturated image --the glossy, coated with the soon to be released glamour 3 coating custom mixing the gloss to meet the need of the image. Can't beat the price, effort and support of the company team, and quality of the canvas. They are always working on something. A rougher textured canvas is in the planning. Their papers will be getting the new coating technology soon so watch for that.

Trying to limit your paper choices is artistically stiffleing, much can be added to the appeal of an image from a unique surface selection, and certain markets can benefit from the "name" or less expensive costs of a paper. One thing is for sure---we can't complain that we don't have choices now--and with the competition between manufacturers, something new will always be around the corner.

Paul

[JeffKohn]

Premier art generations alise rag--bright white or natural ---for the best gamut volume and D max out there

I've not heard much at all about this paper, but that's a pretty strong endorsement. Have you by any chance compared it to Crane Museo Max for D-max and gamut? How much texture does it have?


Of all the fiber-based semi-gloss papers, my personal favorite is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. I perfer its surface and paper base to the Fine Art Baryta.

[RandomJoe]

You shouldn't limit yourself to only four "types" of paper. Just in matte's alone, you should have four types of surfaces to pick from IMO.

I am just starting up a small Fine art printing service
so to try to keep my startup costs low I am trying to limit myself to as few papers as possible
and I plan to grow it as the needs arise

Atlex.com has a large selection of paper and i like there sample packs
seems very handy

[pleverington]

Jeff-

The Generations Alise line is about two months out now and I did mention to the company that I found it strange that they don't try harder to get their product known to the public better. Like maybe send some samples to michael here(maybe they have).

In a previous thread here on this site, Paul Roark also found the the alise paper to be the King of Dmax. Using two fresh profiles made by Eric chan for my 9900, and looking at them in colorthink, the gamut of the alise completely engulfs the gamut of the Museo max by maybe 5% give or take. Only one very little area did the museo show through the gamut volume of the Alise. (I used the alise photo white profile for comparison --not the natural). Black ink limit and paper white readings were:  Alise--15 black, 98 white........Museo max--18 black, 98 white. You can totally see the difference on the profile targets when looking at the black squares. Eric gave me a Dmax reading of 1.732 for the alise. Only the Hahnemule Photo Rag Ultra Smooth MAY have better Dmax (1.736)(15 BLACK, 98 WHITE) but I wonder cause given that Hahnemule uses the same wonderful coating for all their Matte papers, all their other papers are not quite that good. If it is so, then the Alise and the ultra smooth would be very, very close in their D max--but the overall Alise gamut IS larger and engulfs that of the Hahnemule ultra--granted not by much.. But of course--the Hahnemule is close to double the price.  

The Alise photo white has OBA's of course and the natural does not. The natural is a very sweet warm and not something you would hesitate to much about using as the white is about as bright as I have seen for a non OBA paper.
The photo white is quite a bit whiter than epsons velvet fine art, the natural is somewhat brighter looking than Museo Max.


The texture of both Alise papers is slight, I would say just about half way between museo max and an ultra smooth paper. Personally I would like a paper texture like Max or velvet fine art with this coating and then an ultrasmooth version. Premier has a paper they call "velvet" which is a dead ringer for epsons velvet in texture, that is not only brighter--but heavier--and comes in rolls! And even though it also outperforms the epson velvet for gamut and Dmax--it still doesn't get up to the Alise line. They are working on upgrading the entire line with the generations coating so that would be a great paper to look out for. Again a version with little to no OBA's would be great to add with the one with OBA's. Two whites--two weights--

The reason I like to use epson velvet for texture comparison is that for a papers ability to add "apparent" detail to certain images, the epson velvet has it down perfect. Any more, the texture becomes part of the pictures composition--any less the effect is lost. The alise falls into that later category then.

Museo max is great paper and for most images maybe extra D and gamut are something to be little concerned with--but the paper white of the natural is very sweet like I said, and for a lot of other images that have any ammount of dark values the alise might be a good choice to go to.

Paul

[JeffKohn]

Paul,

Thanks for the detailed write-up. It sounds like a paper worth checking out when my current roll of Museo MAX is depleted. The cost is also very attractive compared to Hahnemuhle or Museo.

[pleverington]

Random Joe--

If saving money is your goal then maybe go with the

Moab colorado gloss and satine 245(1.16/sf),

and the red river ultra pro satin 2.0 260(.45/sf) for your photo black ink papers.



Then for matte-- the red river aurora 250 (.56/sf) which is rag based with two white versions based on OBA's or not,

Inkjet art illuminata watercolor 210(.58/sf) for a matte with an epson velvet texture look.





Even epson premium luster250 can be .52/sf,

 and Ilford Galerie smooth pearl290, also a microceramic RC luster for .45/sf..


Even though the colorado stuff is over a dollar a sf, it is so close to exhibition fiber(glossy) in looks and gamut, that at less than half the cost, I would think it to be on a persons list. The satine is a very nice dulled down gloss without going sandy-satin as in a luster. I do wish they were  a little bit thicker, but 245 is just enough. The ultrapro satin 2.0 is a luster type paper--just a small ammount of OBA's. The illiuminata is really the one that needs to be heavier--and they did have a heavier version, but it is now discontinued(310). You might get it on special request and it did come in a roll--2 foot only. Maybe a cheap backer when selling just the print in a clear bag, or reserve the paper for mat mounted sales only.

All my pricing was based on the longest roll length in a 44 inch width at the cheapest store I could find.


Paul

[pleverington]

You know how you get a song stuck in your head and you can't seem to get rid of it.

That's kind of like how I feel about Hahnemules baryta papers. When I first saw a sheet of it, I instantly thought of that styrofoam packing sheet they use to wrap delicate electronics in like circuit boards. Or maybe the styrofoam tray at the bottom of a pound of hamburger. Thats what the surface looks like to me and I just can't get the comparison out of my head enough to like the stuff. I suppose it doesn't matter at all when mounted and at viewing distance, but up close --yuck. I much favor the fine art pearl--that one is sweet. I do love the epson exhibition for it's surface qualities--it's just gorgeous. Any one else look at the hahnemule and see styrofoam?

Hope I didn't put any thought loops in anyones thinking!  

Paul

[JeffKohn]

You know how you get a song stuck in your head and you can't seem to get rid of it.

That's kind of like how I feel about Hahnemules baryta papers. When I first saw a sheet of it, I instantly thought of that styrofoam packing sheet they use to wrap delicate electronics in like circuit boards. Or maybe the styrofoam tray at the bottom of a pound of hamburger. Thats what the surface looks like to me and I just can't get the comparison out of my head enough to like the stuff. I suppose it doesn't matter at all when mounted and at viewing distance, but up close --yuck. I much favor the fine art pearl--that one is sweet. I do love the epson exhibition for it's surface qualities--it's just gorgeous. Any one else look at the hahnemule and see styrofoam?

Hope I didn't put any thought loops in anyones thinking!  

Paul

Interesting, to me the Fine Art Baryta and Photo Rag Baryta looked very different.  The latter looks just like the original Photo Rag, only with some gloss.

I know what you mean though. In a review somebody once compared the look and feel of Museo Silver Rag to the cardboard that comes under the collar when you buy a new dress shirt (it may even have been Michael here at Lula). It totally ruined that paper for me, that's all I see when I look at it.

[pleverington]

Hee-hee. Thats what I'm talkin about!

Paul