HP Z3100 reds, an email to Ben Wolf

[lcastric]

Hello Ben,
As I struggle, once again, to print a South Western red rock image on canvas,
I regret purchasing the Z3100 and vow to buy the Epson 9900 as soon as
I can swing it.

But before I push the button, is there any accommodation that HP has made to victims of the Z3100
who wish to get the Z3200? I've worn myself out following the online forums on this subject, so I thought I'd ask you.
You have been very responsive to queries in the past.

So far as I know HP's handling, denial, of this issue has been unethical and a poor business strategy.
Unless there is some loyalty from Hp to their Z3100 customers in the form of a discount on the Z3200, I'll go
to the 9900 and be happier, if only for the vastly superior paper handling. Fumbling around in back of the printer,
which means you need much more floor space for the printer so you can wiggle behind it,
while trying to read a small, dim panel upside down was a stroke of design flatulence.

Besides I have found the profiles made with  the on board spectrometer for 3rd party media very mediocre.
Shelling out another $700 or so for the APS doesn't sit right either.
Thanks, Lincoln

[kers]

I have a Z3100 and my answer is:

yes they built the Z3200.  


I am happy with the machine, It always works and gives beautiful ( colour) accurate prints that last 200 years- but reds on matt surfaces (canvas I do not know) are an issue.
(& frequently documented in these fora over the last 2 years...)

The HP canvas types will be probably the best choce in this case (?)


cheers PK

[lcastric]

I have a Z3100 and my answer is:

yes they built the Z3200.  


I am happy with the machine, It always works and gives beautiful ( colour) accurate prints that last 200 years- but reds on matt surfaces (canvas I do not know) are an issue.
(& frequently documented in these fora over the last 2 years...)

The HP canvas types will be probably the best choce in this case (?)


cheers PK

Thanks for your feedback. I know this is a worn out topic, but I'm at a point where I can't fool around with the wasted ink and media and the
endless workarounds and compromises any longer. Southwestern wide-format landscapes are the center of my personal and commercial work so I have to get another printer.

The media (using HP canvas etc) is not an acceptable solution in terms of print quality. Essentially what you and HP are saying is that if you bought a 3100
and want to print saturated reds on matt media (or glossy for that matter), then buy another printer. Gee, as I recall, that's why I bought the Z3100,
so I could profile and print on virtually any 3rd party media. The fact that HP has not even acknowledged the problem, let alone gone out of their way to
fix it doesn't inspire brand loyalty.

Does anyone know what happened to Ben Wolf?? or how to get the attention of HP?? their support website is a joke.

[Roscolo]

Since you state you have to get another printer anyway, why don't you have some of your images printed on a z3200 and see if you are happy with the results? If not, then get some prints done on a Canon, Epson, etc. until you find the printer that works best for you and buy that printer. A little research and getting some samples done may cost a bit in time, effort and money, but usually pays off in getting the printer you need for your specific use.

I've had no problems or complaints with the z3100, reds and all. Best printer I've ever used. I find just going into Selective Color and adding a little black into any color I want to see darker or more saturated (not just red), usually does the trick for me, my purposes and my customers. YMMV

[kers]

Thanks for your feedback.......

I must say I bought the printer without too much testing and for me it works very good , but i can understand that if deep dark reds are your core business it is a big problem. _
Every printer has some weak spots and with the Z3100 it is the  deep reds on matte -(I thought it would do fine on the hp canvas but apparently it is not)
( i use HP prof satin most of the time and the reds are good i find)
I agree that it is wise to make some testprints on all other machines out there and sell the Z3100...

[Rocco Penny]

Hi there, I'm a beginner so please excuse my inexperience.
Is it possible to reproduce the lack of saturated reds on matte paper using a particular image?
I've found that with Harmon Mat FB Mp, which is my favorite paper to practice on, because I easily proof colors on it-just matches what my recollection is.
Anyway, I have some wild strawberries, and other garrish red colors I've been really successful reproducing natural colors with using the Harmon.
I tried Epson enhanced mat and was less successful. This was probably because I'm a beginner.
Anyway,  I read and thought about the saturated reds and wanted to go after them.
I'm saying the only paper I've noticed funky colors on is epson enhanced mat.
Maybe the reds you need are different.
Is there an image you have I could print on my 3100?
I'd love to see the red issue in depth.
Thank you
Rocco        ps the computer world changes quick & I'll bet the fellow you're writing is out of there

[deanwork]

I've been printing with the Z3100 on Breathing Color Chromata canvas for a year and a half reproducing paintings for very picky painters, and camera work as well, and I've never run into a situation where I couldn't achieve reds I needed.

I did do tests of the Vivera 3100 inks directly with Canon Prograph 9000, and Epson 9800, using the Atkinson color charts. Those charts described all the basic hues along with real world photographs and grayscales. It was a well talked about fact that the Vivera reds were not as strong in gamut on matte media, and the doubling of longevity is surely a factor in this. The yellows are quite bright though for an ink like this.

What I found in the direct tests on the same general media on all three printers using - HP Pro Satin, Canon's version of it, and Epson's Premium Luster / and also using Hahnemuhle Photorag 308 on all three is:

Certain Greens were achieved on the Z that the other two couldn't match.

Blues had a stronger gamut on the Z and the Canon

Epson reds had stronger saturation on Epson K3, followed closely by Canon Lucia, and weaker on the Z

Gray scale neutrality was far better on the Z3100 than the other two with Epson's gray being gray/brown without color composite inks added and the Lucia very cool.

This is not Colorthink analysis and not scientific comparisons, just visual color target comparisons.

The differences is red saturation was far less on the HP Pro Satin media to the point of being a non issue for  me. On Photorag the reds were weaker but not to the point where 98% of what I do would be effected.
If you do work where screaming reds are necessary, especially ad work and design work where you have to match strong red hues on z3100, the Vivera inks could very well be a problem. It is the price you pay for permanence. (look at Wilhelm's figures for K3 on Hahnemuhle papers, not good). When I printed this same chart on someone else's Z3200 the reds looked visually pretty damn good to me on matt media.

Now of course these days Canon has changed their black inks where they are not bluish like they were and Epson has the new improved Magenta and a totally different expanded hue inkset that I have not tested.

As far as I can tell Ben Wolf is no longer at hp and that is a REAL shame. My support guy says he doesn't even show up in the company phone book and that's really sad because he was supposed to be the guy standing behind all Z users. That is big corporations for you.

john

Hello Ben,
As I struggle, once again, to print a South Western red rock image on canvas,
I regret purchasing the Z3100 and vow to buy the Epson 9900 as soon as
I can swing it.

But before I push the button, is there any accommodation that HP has made to victims of the Z3100
who wish to get the Z3200? I've worn myself out following the online forums on this subject, so I thought I'd ask you.
You have been very responsive to queries in the past.

So far as I know HP's handling, denial, of this issue has been unethical and a poor business strategy.
Unless there is some loyalty from Hp to their Z3100 customers in the form of a discount on the Z3200, I'll go
to the 9900 and be happier, if only for the vastly superior paper handling. Fumbling around in back of the printer,
which means you need much more floor space for the printer so you can wiggle behind it,
while trying to read a small, dim panel upside down was a stroke of design flatulence.

Besides I have found the profiles made with  the on board spectrometer for 3rd party media very mediocre.
Shelling out another $700 or so for the APS doesn't sit right either.
Thanks, Lincoln

[lcastric]

Thanks Rocco. Here's a reds image.


Thanks for you reply, John. Breathing color chromata white is the canvas I've been using. I've ordered
some HP Pro satin and matt canvas to try but shudder at the price.

Do you have any experience with the HP's APS profiling software option and the reds issue and in general?

Yes, it's a shame Ben Wolf in no longer available.

[deanwork]

I sincerely doubt you are going to see any  significant gamut difference with the APS software over what you have. What you might see is a little more accuracy between the precise relationship of hues, but primarily from what I gather the primary improvement is better shadow detail, with some media, with some profiles.

Some who have tried both may want to comment.

I actually find the BC Chromata canvas and the Frederick canvas prices to be more than reasonable, ( though most of us don't have any money these days for anything) and the Pro Satin, although having rolls half as long as say Epson Premium Luster, is almost half the price of the best baryta papers out there and the Hahnemuhle rag media that I end up using for most everything else. The Hahnemuhle canvas is so expensive I've never even seen it.

john

Thanks Rocco. Here's a reds image.


Thanks for you reply, John. Breathing color chromata white is the canvas I've been using. I've ordered
some HP Pro satin and matt canvas to try but shudder at the price.

Do you have any experience with the HP's APS profiling software option and the reds issue and in general?

Yes, it's a shame Ben Wolf in no longer available.

[deanwork]

That is a beautiful south west landscape. Really well done. Normally I yawn at these things because they have been done to death since the 50s ... But that brings something new to it.

But why are you cranking the saturation so high? I think from this file it just looks like you might be trying to push this too far. I've spent a lot of time in Arizona and Utah I don't remember any landscapes being that saturated.

But I know, art isn't real. You know what would have been nice is if HP had offered the new red ink to us 3100 users. But they say they had to reingineer the print heads or something. I'm suspicious of that because that is exactly what Epson said 10 years ago about their archival set. Later we found out we could put any ink in those printers we wanted and profile just fine. Hp is probably not making it up this time though because it is certainly in their interest I would think to have all the Z customers happy and not complaining on forums like this. But strange things continually happen in this industry and I certainly can't figure it out.

j

[lcastric]

That is a beautiful south west landscape. Really well done. Normally I yawn at these things because they have been done to death since the 50s ... But that brings something new to it.

But why are you cranking the saturation so high? I think from this file it just looks like you might be trying to push this too far. I've spent a lot of time in Arizona and Utah I don't remember any landscapes being that saturated.

But I know, art isn't real. You know what would have been nice is if HP had offered the new red ink to us 3100 users. But they say they had to reingineer the print heads or something. I'm suspicious of that because that is exactly what Epson said 10 years ago about their archival set. Later we found out we could put any ink in those printers we wanted and profile just fine. Hp is probably not making it up this time though because it is certainly in their interest I would think to have all the Z customers happy and not complaining on forums like this. But strange things continually happen in this industry and I certainly can't figure it out.

j

Believe it or not I haven't ramped up the saturation on this image. This is a remarkable place called Whitepocket in the Paria Drainage east and south from Kanab, UT.
Here's the whole image.

[deanwork]

Well that is intense red for nature.

I really love the edges and image shape on this full stiched panorama just like it is, asymmetry and all.

[Rocco Penny]

hah,thank you,
I'm quite astounded by the crazy colors there.
I was once in the canyon between moab and telluride and I'll say it was the prettiest colored bare rock and dirt I ever saw.
Lightning strikes all day had me scared though.
Even 20 miles in the flat desert seems too close.
Well if it's ok I'll play with that image on harman matt then hp pro satin photo and compare my printer's output.
Thanks again,
Rocco Penny

[Colorwave]

PK-

The image you posted has what I would call reddish browns, but looks like it is well within the gamut of a Z3100, which I also have.  I use APS, and find that it satisfies my needs, and think that it's profiles are better than the stock profiling, but not better than professional profiling software profiles.  

I'm curious, are you getting significant areas that show the reds are out of gamut with this image, when you select to show the out of gamut colors with your profile you are using?  I wouldn't expect to see many, if any from this image.  I've got some screamingly vivid reddish colors from specific images, especially ones that lean more toward magenta vs yellowish reds.  Most of my red problems have come from needing to increase the saturation and finding that the color differentiation gets lost, as even in perceptual rendering intent RIPs, the reds wind up running together and looking too much like one tone.  I sometimes find that by lowering, or selectively lowering the saturation, I get more separation without loosing the vividness.  Sometimes I need to do manual painting on a masked hue/saturation layer to achieve this.  The Photoshop gamut warning has it's limitations, but if it shows that large areas of a color, particularly red, are all out of gamut, it helps to visualize the problems before printing so you can address them.  When I see that there are large gray blocks showing up in the gamut warning, I know that I need to move some hue/saturation around to keep them from getting too muddy.

Have you tried getting a custom profile for the Chromata White from Breathing color?  It is free, and would almost certainly help your cause, particularly if you are ready to buy another printer to address this problem.  I'd definitely give that a shot before I gave up and pulled the plug on the Z3100.

[Geoff Wittig]

Hello Ben,
As I struggle, once again, to print a South Western red rock image on canvas,
I regret purchasing the Z3100 and vow to buy the Epson 9900 as soon as
I can swing it.

All printers have their strengths and weaknesses. I used an Epson 7600 for a few years, and while I loved the reds, its metamerism and lack of decent neutral greys drove me crazy. I've been using the Z3100 since it came out, mostly with complete satisfaction. Yes, the reds can be mediocre on some media. I was a bit disappointed like everyone else with reds on cotton rag paper, though HP's canned profiles were ironically way better than anything the on-board spectro could produce. But it's very paper-specific. For example, I get really excellent reds with the Z3100 on Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl. But on photo rag baryta, reds are visibly weaker. I've learned to live with that, and use photo rag baryta mostly for black & white prints, where the Z3100 is simply unbeatable with its dead-neutral grey and very deep d-max. If I need a real neon red (which isn't very often), photo rag pearl gets me most of the way there, and HP's professional satin is a bit better yet.

If you think the Epson 9900 will be nirvana, just check out some of the wailing on-line about head clogs and about its brain-dead self-cleaning routine with associated massive ink wastage. The Z3100 is light-years ahead on that front.

[lcastric]

PK-

The image you posted has what I would call reddish browns, but looks like it is well within the gamut of a Z3100, which I also have.  I use APS, and find that it satisfies my needs, and think that it's profiles are better than the stock profiling, but not better than professional profiling software profiles.  

I'm curious, are you getting significant areas that show the reds are out of gamut with this image, when you select to show the out of gamut colors with your profile you are using?  I wouldn't expect to see many, if any from this image.  I've got some screamingly vivid reddish colors from specific images, especially ones that lean more toward magenta vs yellowish reds.  Most of my red problems have come from needing to increase the saturation and finding that the color differentiation gets lost, as even in perceptual rendering intent RIPs, the reds wind up running together and looking too much like one tone.  I sometimes find that by lowering, or selectively lowering the saturation, I get more separation without loosing the vividness.  Sometimes I need to do manual painting on a masked hue/saturation layer to achieve this.  The Photoshop gamut warning has it's limitations, but if it shows that large areas of a color, particularly red, are all out of gamut, it helps to visualize the problems before printing so you can address them.  When I see that there are large gray blocks showing up in the gamut warning, I know that I need to move some hue/saturation around to keep them from getting too muddy.

Have you tried getting a custom profile for the Chromata White from Breathing color?  It is free, and would almost certainly help your cause, particularly if you are ready to buy another printer to address this problem.  I'd definitely give that a shot before I gave up and pulled the plug on the Z3100.

Thanks for your suggestions on how to compensate for this issue. I did get a profile from Breathing Color, but the on board spect did better. I'll try them again (the receptionist did the profile in lieu of a tech type). Yes, the red/browns on that image go to mud. It's really quite amazing how bad it is. I fooled around with sat and hue and finally got an acceptable print, but it wasn't easy.

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[lcastric]

All printers have their strengths and weaknesses. I used an Epson 7600 for a few years, and while I loved the reds, its metamerism and lack of decent neutral greys drove me crazy. I've been using the Z3100 since it came out, mostly with complete satisfaction. Yes, the reds can be mediocre on some media. I was a bit disappointed like everyone else with reds on cotton rag paper, though HP's canned profiles were ironically way better than anything the on-board spectro could produce. But it's very paper-specific. For example, I get really excellent reds with the Z3100 on Hahnemuhle photo rag pearl. But on photo rag baryta, reds are visibly weaker. I've learned to live with that, and use photo rag baryta mostly for black & white prints, where the Z3100 is simply unbeatable with its dead-neutral grey and very deep d-max. If I need a real neon red (which isn't very often), photo rag pearl gets me most of the way there, and HP's professional satin is a bit better yet.

If you think the Epson 9900 will be nirvana, just check out some of the wailing on-line about head clogs and about its brain-dead self-cleaning routine with associated massive ink wastage. The Z3100 is light-years ahead on that front.

Thanks for you suggestions. Yes, my 7600 was taken in many pieces by the garbage truck to the dump a week ago after a session where I fried the relatively new head. And just this evening I was reflecting on how HP got the head clogging issue right. What a blessing!!

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[Colorwave]

Just for grins, I downloaded the original photo to take a look at it in Photoshop.  It didn't show up with a profile attached (ideally, it should be sRGB for showing us here online, to be as accurate as is possible on the web).  It tried assigning ProPhoto, aRGB and sRGB profiles to it, and took a look at the gamut warning using my BC Chromata White profile made on my machine with APS.  None of the colorspaces showed anything out of gamut without modifying them, and even then I had to boost the saturation 30% (!) to get some of the reds to clip.  From this, it seems to confirm what my eyeballs told me, that this should be a very safe image for reproducing with a Z3100, unless you have a terrible media profile.  I think there must be some other issue other than the Vivera inkset causing your difficulties.  If it is the profile, then I think we will all know to insist on having someone other than the receptionist at BC build our custom profiles.  I assume you are using application managed color set in Photoshop and the driver, and have the correct profile chosen in Photoshop, right?  Are you using AdobeRGB or ProPhoto for this image?  In sRGB, I couldn't get the reds to clip even with increasing the saturation by 100%, so I don't think it has the color volume to make it worth messing with for this image.

[kers]

[attachment=16750:Afbeelding_12.png]

......  None of the colorspaces showed anything out of gamut without modifying them, and even then I had to boost the saturation 30% (!) to get some of the reds to clip.  From this, it seems to confirm what my eyeballs told me, that this should be a very safe image for reproducing with a Z3100, unless you have a terrible media profile.......

Indeed there must be something wrong in the printer or the workflow... I see the same results.  But talking about this I wonder why my APS profiles have usually less volume than the standard profiles profided by HP...?

Or is it only a problem that I have?

I have attached a aps Hahnemuele smooth fine art profile ( coloured part ) surrounded in grey by the standard HP profile- with clearly better reds.

The Hahnemuele Smoothe fine art paper is my worst struggling paper when it comes to reds - still i read some people are happy with its reds results..?

If anyone can help thanx

[neil snape]

The original question was what did HP do about upgrading the Z3100.

Well sadly they decided that for mechanical reasons it was better to make the Z3200 an upgrade, rather than a update with software or hardware components.

I had this conversion with HP engineers and it was not well transmitted but there are real reasons why it would not have been possible to update a 3100 to a 3200.

The good news is, they often have or had take back pricing that is very attractive. I do feel that is a good compromise to get a new printer with better colour, better UI and a solid firmware.

As for the reds on the 3100. Reds on matte paper , the ones that are very porous like PhotoRag will not produce great reds. What is curious is if you use the smoother ones, like Smooth Fine Art the reds are not that far off Canon for example.  
Why you are having problems , I'm not sure. IF you can have someone give you an APS profile or one made with Monaco Profiler. The reds come out darker and with a more blue hue than the built in. Neither the built in , nor the APS profiles are accurate, just different.

Some canvas surfaces are almost like photo surfaces, they have no problems in red at all. Others do, the matte ones especially.
There may be a way to edit the red portion of these profiles to place the reds closer to what you need, but that is always going to be as hack.

Oh btw if you have or someone you know a ColorMunki, I've found the profiles on matte with the 3100 to be excellent.