high speed sync on h3d-II and Broncolor Grafit

[TMARK]

it is indeed, especially for 1980s tec, made in switzerland...
 

I've never even seen one!  But now I want one.

[mmurph]

If the subject is lit only by a strobe's 1/2000 output, its like a 1/2000 shutter.

The argument is that the t0.1 time best approximates a shutters "stopping power."

With the t0.1 time, there is only 10% of the total power/light remaining to be discharged. With a t0.5 time there is a full 50% of the power remaining.

The degree to which the power discharge is "front loaded" on the Bron t0.1 graph is pretty interesting.

The Pulso A4 has most of the features of the Grafit at a great price. They have been selling for about $800 lately. A year ago they were selling for $1,750.  They are quite heavy though, really studio only packs. I have Mobil and Verso for battery location work, Topas and Verso for AC location.

Profoto is a good choice for many who rent to supplement their kit in the larger cities. I have no reasonable rental options here, so I own my full kit. Really beautiful equipment, as is Profoto.

I wish Bron would competete at the Acute 2 "entry level" price point for a good Nano kit with 2 heads and a case. It would help them build longer- term market share. An asynchronous kit with digital LCD control would blow away the Acute, especially with the Profoto issue with incompatible heads.

Best,
Michael

[TMARK]

The thing that I love about the Acute2 1200 is that it doesn't draw much power, is light enough, and is tough as can be.  I usually don't need really short flash duration, as I mainly balance strobe with ambient (window light),  On locations with iffy old wiring, the Acutes don't trip the breakers or start fires where the Pro7 would blow every time.

I do LOVE Bron stuff, its always been at the back of my mind.  I got into Profoto after assisting for 6 months.  I saw the Pro5 and 6's get BEATEN to death for 14 hours a day, and they very rarely had any problems.  Aside from the reliability, the thing that won't let me get rid of my Profoto stuff is the head design.  I can do so much with the zoom reflector, its outstanding.  But the Bron Paras, Sat. Starros are awesome, some of the best modifiers around.

The Elinchrom Ranger Speed A/S has a really front loaded output curve.  I think they discharge a full capaciter faster than a lower power setting.  I might be wrong, but I do think that is the case.

I think you are right about competing with the Acutes.  Bron could do well, although I bet the Acutes are about to be updated to incorporate some of the AIR/D4 features.  I mainly shoot motion now so I'm on to Arri HMI and Arri tungsten.  I have $25k worth of Profoto in a gear closet that I haven't used in a bit.  Tungsten is such a pain in the ass compared to strobes, all because of heat and weight, low output.  I have burns all over my foerarms from a 1k that I couldn't leave alone on a really HOT day when I wasn't gaffing.  No grip gloves, short sleeves, but it wasn't right.  I couldn't just leave it!  Thank god for OCD, right?
 

The argument is that the t0.1 time best approximates a shutters "stopping power."

With the t0.1 time, there is only 10% of the total power/light remaining to be discharged. With a t0.5 time there is a full 50% of the power remaining.

The degree to which the power discharge is "front loaded" on the Bron t0.1 graph is pretty interesting.

The Pulso A4 has most of the features of the Grafit at a great price. They have been selling for about $800 lately. A year ago they were selling for $1,750.  They are quite heavy though, really studio only packs. I have Mobil and Verso for battery location work, Topas and Verso for AC location.

Profoto is a good choice for many who rent to supplement their kit in the larger cities. I have no reasonable rental options here, so I own my full kit. Really beautiful equipment, as is Profoto.

I wish Bron would competete at the Acute 2 "entry level" price point for a good Nano kit with 2 heads and a case. It would help them build longer- term market share. An asynchronous kit with digital LCD control would blow away the Acute, especially with the Profoto issue with incompatible heads.

Best,
Michael

[mmurph]

The Acute 2 is a great pack, no question. As is all Profoto gear. It is usually the better choice for most people, if only because of it's ready availabity and overall market penetration. It is easy to rent, assistants and other photogs are familiar with it, etc

But, but, but....... Bron gear is like crack! It is so well engineered
, such a delight to use each time. I just became addicted!  

If you look at used prices right now, Bron is almost too good to pass up. You can get a Bron Topas A2 1600 Ws pack lightly used with about 2,000 pops on it for around $1,500. Add two used Unilite 1600 Ws heads for $650 each, throw in a Tenba case for $200, and for $3K you have a killer kit for $700 less than the Acute 2 kit new ( if you buy demo from a dealer you should also get a full 2 year warranty and RFS.)

The specs are actually fairly similar. But the Topas has 2 digital LCD panels, fully asymmetric adjustment in .1 stop increments over a 6.3 stop range, 5 proportional modelling light levels, computer control, slow recharge,  same size and weight as Acute.

Anyway, no wars. As professionls we are just lucky to have a choice from such great tools. I'm sure they will come in handy
as cooking lights or seats or something once the industry totally collapse and we are alll living in cardboard boxes!  

Cheers! Have a great weekend!

Michael

[mattlap2]

The argument is that the t0.1 time best approximates a shutters "stopping power."

With the t0.1 time, there is only 10% of the total power/light remaining to be discharged. With a t0.5 time there is a full 50% of the power remaining.

The degree to which the power discharge is "front loaded" on the Bron t0.1 graph is pretty interesting.

The Pulso A4 has most of the features of the Grafit at a great price. They have been selling for about $800 lately. A year ago they were selling for $1,750.  They are quite heavy though, really studio only packs. I have Mobil and Verso for battery location work, Topas and Verso for AC location.

Profoto is a good choice for many who rent to supplement their kit in the larger cities. I have no reasonable rental options here, so I own my full kit. Really beautiful equipment, as is Profoto.

I wish Bron would competete at the Acute 2 "entry level" price point for a good Nano kit with 2 heads and a case. It would help them build longer- term market share. An asynchronous kit with digital LCD control would blow away the Acute, especially with the Profoto issue with incompatible heads.

Best,
Michael

Michael,

The major problem with the Pulso packs is in many cases they cannot be repaired.  A number of the internal parts are no longer available.    So you take the risk of it becoming a big ol' paperweight.   That is one of the reasons Sinar Bron (now Bron Imaging) has been pushing trade in programs the last few years.   They want to drain the market of un-repairable product.

When I was with SBI I had customers trading in Pulso A's, Pulso's, and even a few 404's which go back to the 1970s.

Bron has run some pretty good kits with the Nano's but never really got any traction.   They just don't have the controllability of the Acutes.   On the Nano A4's you only have a choice of symmetrical or a 70/30 split.  A bit limiting but Bron has claimed that is all they could offer at that price point with Swiss Manufacturing.

[AlDoori]

I've never even seen one!  But now I want one.

btw, i am not sure if the acute can be compared to anything bron makes.

if i compare the latest and greatest profoto D1 to the latest bron scoro A, the scoro looks better to me, at a better price, at least in germany.

a comparison of the battery powered packs is similar.
the profoto B2 looks good, the bron verso A looks better.
the bron mobil A2R is similar to profoto B2, at 50% of the price.

profoto light formers are not cheaper than bron.

and: if i reduce power at my bron pack -t 0.1 in display, output is reduced - 0.1 f stops.

all in all: bron might have the better product, but profoto took over the rental market.

[TMARK]

I love Bron but don't see any point in switching.  In truth neither Bron nor Profoto are really very different.  Profoto has the better head design.  Bron has several killer modifiers and, at least until the Pro8, the faster packs.  For most people the brands are interchangeable.  They are to me, as duration isn't all that important, and I mainly use Molas and for the big umbrellas I rent a Briese from Pier 59.  If I were starting out today I might go Bron, as the Pro8 is stupid expensive.  

That FCC, on the other hand, looks awesome, much better than my 558 and 358 Sekonics, my Minolta color meter III, etc.

btw, i am not sure if the acute can be compared to anything bron makes.

if i compare the latest and greatest profoto D1 to the latest bron scoro A, the scoro looks better to me, at a better price, at least in germany.

a comparison of the battery powered packs is similar.
the profoto B2 looks good, the bron verso A looks better.
the bron mobil A2R is similar to profoto B2, at 50% of the price.

profoto light formers are not cheaper than bron.

and: if i reduce power at my bron pack -t 0.1 in display, output is reduced - 0.1 f stops.

all in all: bron might have the better product, but profoto took over the rental market.

[Snook]

The Acute 2 is a great pack, no question. As is all Profoto gear. It is usually the better choice for most people, if only because of it's ready availabity and overall market penetration. It is easy to rent, assistants and other photogs are familiar with it, etc

But, but, but....... Bron gear is like crack! It is so well engineered
, such a delight to use each time. I just became addicted!  

If you look at used prices right now, Bron is almost too good to pass up. You can get a Bron Topas A2 1600 Ws pack lightly used with about 2,000 pops on it for around $1,500. Add two used Unilite 1600 Ws heads for $650 each, throw in a Tenba case for $200, and for $3K you have a killer kit for $700 less than the Acute 2 kit new ( if you buy demo from a dealer you should also get a full 2 year warranty and RFS.)

The specs are actually fairly similar. But the Topas has 2 digital LCD panels, fully asymmetric adjustment in .1 stop increments over a 6.3 stop range, 5 proportional modelling light levels, computer control, slow recharge,  same size and weight as Acute.

Anyway, no wars. As professionls we are just lucky to have a choice from such great tools. I'm sure they will come in handy
as cooking lights or seats or something once the industry totally collapse and we are alll living in cardboard boxes!  

Cheers! Have a great weekend!

Michael

The Acutes Have some of the worst flash duration of ALL the Profoto stuff.
Your only going to freeze with High end broncolor/Elinchrom or the Profoto 7A series which is why I switched to the 7A's from acutes.. always had that slight blurr to my images at any sync setting.. they suck and I only use them for hairlights and or background stuff now after having the 7A's.
look at the specs before you buy anything and make sure you know the difference bewtween t.05 and normal. they like to lie quite a bit.

Snook

[TMARK]

Not everyone needs fast flash duration.  I usually don't shooting beauty.  When I do I have a bunch of Pro 7S/7A's etc.

At low power the Acutes are pretty fast.  The 2400 is a dog at full power, but it all depents on what you are shooting.

So they don't "suck" in general, they suck for freezing action.

And yes, the t.05 v t.01.  Bron uses the more real .01 duration to meaure flash duration while Profoto uses the lame t.05.  Not sure about Elinchrom.  So in comparing specs, keep this in mind.  Actually, Bron publishes both, AFAIK.

The Acutes Have some of the worst flash duration of ALL the Profoto stuff.
Your only going to freeze with High end broncolor/Elinchrom or the Profoto 7A series which is why I switched to the 7A's from acutes.. always had that slight blurr to my images at any sync setting.. they suck and I only use them for hairlights and or background stuff now after having the 7A's.
look at the specs before you buy anything and make sure you know the difference bewtween t.05 and normal. they like to lie quite a bit.

Snook

[AlDoori]

look at the specs before you buy anything and make sure you know the difference bewtween t.05 and normal. they like to lie quite a bit.

some technical information by bron:

ISO Standard 2827

When comparing the technical data of various manufacturers, ISO Standard 2827
must be observed which defines two values for quoting flash duration:

1.) The effective flash duration t 0.5 is defined as being the period during which the
flash intensity exceeds 50% of its maximum. 50% of the flash power is produced
after t 0.5 has been reached.

2.) The total flash duration t 0.1 is defined as being the period during which the flash
intensity exceeds 10% of its maximum.

3.) Flash manufacturers often only indicate the effective flash duration t 0.5 in data sheets
and brochures. However, when the task is to “freeze“ motion with short flashes, it needs
to be considered that after the stated time t 0.5, the flash still discharges half its
intensity, and that half of the light is produced after t 0.5 has been reached.

4.) In respect of attainable sharpness, t 0.5 cannot be compared with shutter speeds of
the same duration, as the second half of the light quantity, not stated for t 0.5, can
greatly influence the lighting and picture sharpness. It needs to be considered that
the second half of the discharge (i.e. the time after t 0.5) requires twice as long as t
0.5 itself, as the discharge curve becomes flatter.

a few graphs and a funny photo are here:
http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_nw_pr_blitzdauer1_en.pdf

[UlfKrentz]

Regarding flash sync...I paid big bucks for the Broncolor Grafit system to get bright light with short pulse durations for outdoor photography with my Hasselblad H3D-11...Well, it was a huge disappointment because 3200J or even 1600J the fastest pulse durations are too slow to use as intended (bright light at fast sync to underexpose bright ambient light)  At 3200J the duration is 1/140 of a second, therefore I can't even come close to taking advantage of the 1/800 sec flash sync of the hasselblad system.   To get those impressively short durations the power is below what I needed.  The ability to adjust pulse duration on the Grafit is misleading...to get a min. pulse duration of 1/800 sec the Grafit A4 3200J pack has to be reduced to 980J.  

My workaround is just the same as I did it in the past, use ND filters.  That not what I wanted because it makes the viewfinder so much darker.  I also use more reflectors or Fresnels to concentrate the light.  

How are the people out there making use of the high speed sync feature of the Hasselblad H systems and has anyone found a way to do it with wireless triggers?  I hate using the sync cords on location.

Hi,

there will be no work around because this is physics. 32ooJ is a lot of power and it will take some time to have it discharged. Broncolor Grafit and even a bit better the Scoro A4S is the best pack to work with if you can afford to reduce the power to at least 1600J. If you use the maximum power you will not have the benefit of cutting the discharge curve and you will have an ordinary capacitor discharge, normal discharge time will be the result. Using 1/800 shutter speed you will loose around 75% of your flash energy by simply cutting it off through your camera shutter. We experienced 1/320, better 1/250 as the shortest time to use with our Hasselblad. We use our Grafits around 7.5 to max 9.0 powersetting. Using a twin head or two separate heads as one lamp you will shorten the time by one half. Using Grafit or Scoro packs you may use a pack for each lamp, with ordinary packs you will have to use them on one pack to take the advantage. One more thing: Cutting off the flash power with the packs means, you don´t completely discharge your flash capacitors and reduce the maximum current through pack and flash tube in comparision to other methods used to achieve short flash duration, like higher tension and using flashtubes with two short arc ways. Packs and tubes will live longer! We have Grafits which are truly heavy used for more that 10years now, they are still working absolutely perfect. We had other systems before and know the difference. So don´t blame yourself, you bought a precise working machine that will make you enjoy your productions for many years. The only thing I still don´t like is the way they have to be used, always pressing buttons. But there are pros and cons everywhere, in my opinion the Scoro (even more complicated to use) is the cutting edge of what can be engineered at the moment. You can have nearly every flash head adapted to the broncolor system, we are using a quite a lot of different brands with our Grafits. (No more warranty from broncolor, by the way. DON´T use heads with those short duration flashtubes, as they will kill your pack.)
We use the broncolor RFS triggering system with is working very nice, I can recommend it for the use with broncolor. But keep in mind, triggering wireless will always take some more time to process the sync signal, especially if you are using channel separation. Triggering via sycn cords is not elegant by will provide the fastest sync.
What is the lowest ASA setting for your back? Try to use 1/250 shutter speed (not shorter) as this will give you more flash energy, allowing to use smaller aperture. Hope this helps. (Please excuse my english, I´m german)

Cheers

Ulf

[Dave McRitchie - Bron Imaging Group]

Just wanted to add an important point to this thread regarding flash duration and the Scoro vs Grafit.
The Scoro now has threee independant channels which means that the special features work on all 3 outlets. In addition the BIG difference that this makes is that you no longer need 2 packs to take advantage of a twin lampbase.  In the past (and with other manufacturers) you would split power between 2 packs - lets say 100ws from each giving a total output of 200ws but with the flash duration corresponding to that of 100ws.  Now with the design of the Scoro, you can achieve the same result from the one pack.

Dave.

[UlfKrentz]

Just wanted to add an important point to this thread regarding flash duration and the Scoro vs Grafit.
The Scoro now has threee independant channels which means that the special features work on all 3 outlets. In addition the BIG difference that this makes is that you no longer need 2 packs to take advantage of a twin lampbase.  In the past (and with other manufacturers) you would split power between 2 packs - lets say 100ws from each giving a total output of 200ws but with the flash duration corresponding to that of 100ws.  Now with the design of the Scoro, you can achieve the same result from the one pack.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

working for SBI you should know better, there is no difference using Scoro or Grafit with a twin lampbase. You only have two tubes and two cables and there are two electronically switched outlets on a Grafit pack.

Your example of 100Ws each tube will give you a 1/4900s flash duration, no matter if you are using one or two Grafit packs. With the Scoro you will achieve 1/5600s using one pack and 1/4600s using two packs. (Mode shortest flash duration)
I hope there is no confusion: You have to use one pack with two tubes( 1twin lampbase or 2 standard lampbase) to achieve shorter flash duration with ordinary construction(exeption: Grafit and Scoro packs).

Of course you are right, there are 3 switched outlets on a Scoro which is an add on. But to give some more off topic features: You can reduce the flash power to nearly nothing (3.3J), which is FANTASTIC. With the switched power supply version you don´t have a problem with the input voltage, circuit breakers or using them with generators or USV on location. They are very fast and have a very short flash duration. (BTW, I am not working for Bron, but IMHO these packs are really the best choice you can make.)

Cheers

Ulf

[paul_jones]

Hi Dave,

working for SBI you should know better, there is no difference using Scoro or Grafit with a twin lampbase. You only have two tubes and two cables and there are two electronically switched outlets on a Grafit pack.

Your example of 100Ws each tube will give you a 1/4900s flash duration, no matter if you are using one or two Grafit packs. With the Scoro you will achieve 1/5600s using one pack and 1/4600s using two packs. (Mode shortest flash duration)
I hope there is no confusion: You have to use one pack with two tubes( 1twin lampbase or 2 standard lampbase) to achieve shorter flash duration with ordinary construction(exeption: Grafit and Scoro packs).

Of course you are right, there are 3 switched outlets on a Scoro which is an add on. But to give some more off topic features: You can reduce the flash power to nearly nothing (3.3J), which is FANTASTIC. With the switched power supply version you don´t have a problem with the input voltage, circuit breakers or using them with generators or USV on location. They are very fast and have a very short flash duration. (BTW, I am not working for Bron, but IMHO these packs are really the best choice you can make.)

Cheers

Ulf

hi, now we have some real techos discussing the bron packs, can you guys explain how my packs are showing 1/7500 on the LCD when running two heads in one pack, when the specs only say they go up to 1/6000th of a sec?   have i got special super packs?

cheers paul

[AlDoori]

because you can dial in flash duration and colour temperature?

• The flash duration may be reduced to 1/12’000 s (t 0.5), comparable with
1/8'000 s (t0.1).

[paul_jones]

because you can dial in flash duration and colour temperature?

only the scoros are suppose to 8000th sec at T1.0, and the brons are suppose to get to 6000th at T1.0. my powerpacks are grafit A4s, and showing up to 7500th on the readout, so showing on the display a faster duration than the specs show.  

paul

[brentward]

only the scoros are suppose to 8000th sec at T1.0, and the brons are suppose to get to 6000th at T1.0. my powerpacks are grafit A4s, and showing up to 7500th on the readout, so showing on the display a faster duration than the specs show.  

paul

Mine do the same thing with one head turned all the way down. I'm guessing since it's not a lot of power it's listed as a rated duration in the specs. BUT would love to know from the bron techs the correct answer. ;o)

[UlfKrentz]

only the scoros are suppose to 8000th sec at T1.0, and the brons are suppose to get to 6000th at T1.0. my powerpacks are grafit A4s, and showing up to 7500th on the readout, so showing on the display a faster duration than the specs show.  

paul

Hi Paul,

sorry I didn´t want to make this a broncolor thread, only wanted to share my personal experience. The specs show the fastest flash duration possible with one head attached to the pack. If you use two heads or a twin lampbase the flash duration will be shorter. So I am sorry - no special super pack. My Grafits are showing 1/7000s with the use of a twin lampbase. As the flash is switched off they will definitly have the flash duration they show at the LCD. There might be a slightly difference depending on the software version installed into your Grafit. Using the shortest flash duration with that small amount of flash energy will shift color towards blue so much that you have to decide if you want to use it (sometimes it´s good for correcting color e.g. if bouncing over a slightly yellow ceiling). Anyway, to get back to topic, you will hardly overpower the sun at bright ambient light with this setting.

To jameshickey: I assume mmurph is right with what you are trying to photograph, you did not provide a lot of initial information. Hope we could help a bit.

Cheers

Ulf

[jing q]

btw, i am not sure if the acute can be compared to anything bron makes.

if i compare the latest and greatest profoto D1 to the latest bron scoro A, the scoro looks better to me, at a better price, at least in germany.

a comparison of the battery powered packs is similar.
the profoto B2 looks good, the bron verso A looks better.
the bron mobil A2R is similar to profoto B2, at 50% of the price.

profoto light formers are not cheaper than bron.

and: if i reduce power at my bron pack -t 0.1 in display, output is reduced - 0.1 f stops.

all in all: bron might have the better product, but profoto took over the rental market.

brons are terrible for outdoor shooting. flash duration is pretty horrid on the verso. Plus are they still using those tiny lamps for the verso?I use B2 packs and Acute B packs for all my outdoor shooting. solid stuff.though i've had a B2 pack blow up on me once

[AlDoori]

solid stuff.though i've had a B2 pack blow up on me once

bron verso:
t 0.1 (t 0.5) at  1200 J:
1/500 s (1/1500 s)

profoto b2
(t 0.5) at 1200 J
1/2200

profoto does not state the much more important number t 0.1 in the datasheet, it will be about 1/700, a bit faster as the verso, maybe nothing that makes the verso "horrid"...

the 650 W model light with battery opertion is a unique feature of the verso.
verso uses te standard pulso G heads or the metal unilite.

http://www.bron.ch/bc_do_ds_en/index.php