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Author Topic: Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?  (Read 88070 times)

Ray

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #340 on: September 24, 2009, 11:48:23 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
I think the lack of an AA filter makes a huge difference - at 100%, downsized or upsized.
 

Got any evidence to support that thought? There's a company called Maxmax that specialises in removing AA filters. You can find some 'before and after' comparison crops at 100% on their website at http://www.maxmax.com/hot_rod_visible.htm

The impression I get is the improvement, although clearly visible in certain areas, is on balance fairly marginal. There are far greater improvements to be found when using an excellent lens as opposed to a merely good lens, or using any good lens at it's sharpest aperture as opposed to F8 or F11.

I suppose the argument could be, if you already have the finest lens that money can buy, then removing the AA filter will give that slight edge of extra crispness, at the expense sometimes of unwanted moire problems.
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Jack Flesher

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #341 on: September 25, 2009, 01:05:39 pm »

Quote from: John-S
ALERT: All the pros have left the building and what's left is Nerdsville. People who want to endlessly debate nothingness. (Oh crap, a split infinitive. It just doesn't sound right any other way.)

Profanity is fun. Profanity is the result from frustration of tolerating social ineptitude, artistic ineptitude and what-an-effin'-camera-is-for-in-the-first-place ineptitude.

Be sure to clean up and turn off the lights if you're the last one out.

Well said John...

And isn't it curious how all the arm-chair "experts" left posting here agree with the "Pros" who still offer no "proof" yet shoot with the same brand of DSLR they do?  Talk about biases  

It seems clear the inmates are now running this asylum.  
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 01:07:23 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Jeremy Payne

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #342 on: September 25, 2009, 01:44:41 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
...

um ... this from the guy who, as I recall, felt the need to buy a MFDB so he could accurately expose clouds and get "nice" blue skies ...

That was the funniest thing said by a "pro" on this whole thread.

..................

To make real big prints - $30,000.

To impress the models on set - $50,000.

To get blue skies and clouds 'right' - priceless.
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ThierryH

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #343 on: September 25, 2009, 02:59:11 pm »

Now that was the funniest, without doubt.

 

Thierry


Quote from: Jeremy Payne
um ... this from the guy who, as I recall, felt the need to buy a MFDB so he could accurately expose clouds and get "nice" blue skies ...

To make real big prints - $30,000.

To impress the models on set - $50,000.

To get blue skies and clouds 'right' - priceless.
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ThierryH

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #344 on: September 25, 2009, 03:02:10 pm »

Reminder: Ray is "here"!

Be sure that he won't turn off the light that soon.

Thierry

@ Ray: no harm or disrespect meant, I just couldn't resist

Quote from: John-S
ALERT: All the pros have left the building and what's left is Nerdsville. People who want to endlessly debate nothingness. (Oh crap, a split infinitive. It just doesn't sound right any other way.)

Profanity is fun. Profanity is the result from frustration of tolerating social ineptitude, artistic ineptitude and what-an-effin'-camera-is-for-in-the-first-place ineptitude.

Be sure to clean up and turn off the lights if you're the last one out.
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Panopeeper

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #345 on: September 25, 2009, 03:24:02 pm »

Quote
The DSLRs show some clumpy noise in the grey background and the skintones are ... unsatisfying. Matter of taste...

Phase P65+ color calibration - anyone getting really correct colors ?
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Gabor

bjanes

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #346 on: September 25, 2009, 07:10:28 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
And isn't it curious how all the arm-chair "experts" left posting here agree with the "Pros" who still offer no "proof" yet shoot with the same brand of DSLR they do?  Talk about biases  

It seems clear the inmates are now running this asylum.  

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
um ... this from the guy who, as I recall, felt the need to buy a MFDB so he could accurately expose clouds and get "nice" blue skies ...

That was the funniest thing said by a "pro" on this whole thread.
..................

To make real big prints - $30,000.
To impress the models on set - $50,000.
To get blue skies and clouds 'right' - priceless.

Jeremy, I love it. The haughty and condescending Mr. Flesher is impervious to reason and data, but humor has knocked him from his perch high in the clouds.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #347 on: September 25, 2009, 07:56:29 pm »

Quote from: bjanes
Jeremy, I love it. The haughty and condescending Mr. Flesher is impervious to reason and data, but humor has knocked him from his perch high in the clouds.
you shut up, armchair sky clipper  

tho_mas

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #348 on: September 25, 2009, 08:39:49 pm »

Quote from: Panopeeper
Phase P65+ color calibration - anyone getting really correct colors ?
correct (accurate scene referred) colors and pleasing colors are totally different. Nice skin tones are never "correct".
whatever...
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bjanes

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #349 on: September 25, 2009, 09:45:15 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
correct (accurate scene referred) colors and pleasing colors are totally different. Nice skin tones are never "correct".
whatever...

Also, accurate colors are not achievable in a Bayer array sensor as indicated by this quote from DXO on their website:

DXO Color Measurements

"The underlying physics is that a sensor can distinguish exactly the same colors as the average human eye, if and only if the spectral responses of the sensor can be obtained by a linear combination of the eye cone responses. These conditions are called Luther-Ives conditions, and in practice, these never occur. There are objects that a sensor sees as having certain colors, while the eye sees the same objects differently, and the reverse is also true."

This matter was discussed previously by Thomas Knoll on the Adobe Camera Raw Forum. I had theorized that if the CFA filters on the Bayer sensor had the same spectral characteristics as the human eye, color rendering would improve. He stated that such a match was not necessary for perfect color rendering but in so many words that only the Luther-Ives conditions be met. Since the filters are never linear, he concluded that some colors would be accurately represented and others would not. He passed no judgement on the merits of individual sensors. However, it is reasonable to assume that non-linearity differences in the CFA filters could result in differences in color rendering.

DXO on Colorblindness in sensors compares a Nikon camera to a Canon camera and notes a rather marked difference in color processing quality. Interested readers are referred to the link. Besides DR, some photographers may also be interested in color rendering differences among various dSRLs and MFDBs. These can be measured, but are infrequently discussed. DXO gives a metamerism index for each camera. It is 75.83 for the Phase One P65+ and 78.68 for the Nikon D3x. Another topic for us arm chair photographers to discuss.

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EricWHiss

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #350 on: September 26, 2009, 12:26:30 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
Phase P65+ color calibration - anyone getting really correct colors ?
Gabor,
What you've done here is build a straw argument....easily knocked down.  A single post - unqualified in any way does not make fact. I'm sure if you looked you could also find many posts where people state that the P65+ give you more accurate color than anything else they've used.    Neither would be verified or qualified and to try and build an argument based on that is just plain weak - convincing few if any and making yourself look too quick to come to a conclusion.   The internet what you mostly find is posts from people that are dissatisfied with a product and often not due to any fault of the product itself.

Color accuracy is something easily tested.  Imatest does this too, and no I'm not doing it for you so please don't ask.   Of course if you won't test using the manufacturer's recommended software such a test would be meaningless considering the camera profiles and such. No doubt if you tried to compare my Phase P20 or Leica DMR for color accuracy against whatever camera you like using ACR or CameraRAW you'd probably come to a false conclusion. ACR really sticks for both those cameras.     You might enjoy testing the color accuracy of different RAW conversion programs for a particular camera and this could be done too
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 12:30:46 am by EricWHiss »
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cmi

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #351 on: September 26, 2009, 05:10:34 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
...Imatest does this too, and no I'm not doing it for you so please don't ask.  ...

Yeah he is just pissed off, as are most in this thread now. This back and forth bickering taking place the last days throws a bad light on some of the participants.

Gabor: Why don't you summarize your general position regarding the topic along with some explanation? No graphs, don't try to prove at all, just state. Make it simple and commonly understandable. This would be most helpful.

And this is what everybody should do imho. Don't argue *against* anyone. Just state what *you* believe is true, and make it commonly understandable, whatever the point is.
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douglasf13

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #352 on: September 26, 2009, 05:39:54 am »

Quote from: bjanes
Also, accurate colors are not achievable in a Bayer array sensor as indicated by this quote from DXO on their website:

DXO Color Measurements

"The underlying physics is that a sensor can distinguish exactly the same colors as the average human eye, if and only if the spectral responses of the sensor can be obtained by a linear combination of the eye cone responses. These conditions are called Luther-Ives conditions, and in practice, these never occur. There are objects that a sensor sees as having certain colors, while the eye sees the same objects differently, and the reverse is also true."

This matter was discussed previously by Thomas Knoll on the Adobe Camera Raw Forum. I had theorized that if the CFA filters on the Bayer sensor had the same spectral characteristics as the human eye, color rendering would improve. He stated that such a match was not necessary for perfect color rendering but in so many words that only the Luther-Ives conditions be met. Since the filters are never linear, he concluded that some colors would be accurately represented and others would not. He passed no judgement on the merits of individual sensors. However, it is reasonable to assume that non-linearity differences in the CFA filters could result in differences in color rendering.

DXO on Colorblindness in sensors compares a Nikon camera to a Canon camera and notes a rather marked difference in color processing quality. Interested readers are referred to the link. Besides DR, some photographers may also be interested in color rendering differences among various dSRLs and MFDBs. These can be measured, but are infrequently discussed. DXO gives a metamerism index for each camera. It is 75.83 for the Phase One P65+ and 78.68 for the Nikon D3x. Another topic for us arm chair photographers to discuss.

Great topic that probably deserves its own thread. Interestingly, Iliah Borg is always going on about the color seperation of the A900 over the D3x, and the a900 tested a metemarism score on DxO of 87.22, which I believe is the highest score of any camera.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 05:41:14 am by douglasf13 »
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Jeremy Payne

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #353 on: September 26, 2009, 07:42:03 am »

Quote from: Christian Miersch
Yeah he is just pissed off, as are most in this thread now. This back and forth bickering taking place the last days throws a bad light on some of the participants.

Dude ... you really gotta stop layering all this interpreted drama on this stuff ...

Quote from: Christian Miersch
Gabor: Why don't you summarize your general position regarding the topic along with some explanation? No graphs, don't try to prove at all, just state. Make it simple and commonly understandable. This would be most helpful.
And this is what everybody should do imho. Don't argue *against* anyone. Just state what *you* believe is true, and make it commonly understandable, whatever the point is.
Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing or feeling.  If you don't like the thread, stop reading it.
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bjanes

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #354 on: September 26, 2009, 08:09:08 am »

I just came across this quote from Michael in his review of the Sony A900 and Canon 5D MII. Here is one pro who trusts measurements more than his eye for assessment of DR. Some pros (Jack Flesher) judge DR from looking at clouds, but the only problem with their assessment is that they are not even looking at DR but are misinterpreting the findings.

"Dynamic range is something that really isn't measurable by eye, so I'm going to reply on DxOMark's numbers. What they show is that at ISO 100 and 200 the Sony has a slight advantage over the Canon but once we get to ISO 400 and above the Canon shows significantly more DR – a full stop at ISO 800, for example."
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ErikKaffehr

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #355 on: September 26, 2009, 08:44:39 am »

Hi,

I downloaded the Canon 5DII image and the Hasselblad H3DII-50 image and printed both from Lightroom in A2 format on my Epson 3800. Settings: 480 PPI/Standard sharpening/Glossy. Paper: Ilford Smooth Pearl.

Observations:

- Not a lot of difference
- At short viewing distance (25 cm) the Hassy image has better detail
- At longer distance (80 cm) Canon looks better to me, probably because of better DOF and more snap
- It's quite obvious that digital processing plays a big role

I have corrective glasses and that plays a role.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: billthecat
This person on Flickr seems to have a decent comparison:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dos-chin/sets...6120567/detail/

Bill
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 08:49:23 am by ErikKaffehr »
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shelby_lewis

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #356 on: September 26, 2009, 11:52:03 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
At longer distance (80 cm) Canon looks better to me, probably because of better DOF and more snap

"Better" DoF.... says a lot to me.
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BlasR

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #357 on: September 26, 2009, 12:28:06 pm »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I downloaded the Canon 5DII image and the Hasselblad H3DII-50 image and printed both from Lightroom in A2 format on my Epson 3800. Settings: 480 PPI/Standard sharpening/Glossy. Paper: Ilford Smooth Pearl.

Observations:

- Not a lot of difference
- At short viewing distance (25 cm) the Hassy image has better detail
- At longer distance (80 cm) Canon looks better to me, probably because of better DOF and more snap
- It's quite obvious that digital processing plays a big role

I have corrective glasses and that plays a role.

Best regards
Erik


oh ya,,canon will be much better if you look it a mile away.

I think people need better glasses.

Here is a monster.

look the eyes,nose and mouth, at the left top

but you can't look it from a mile away.

here is with the h 50

I think the monster coming after me.

I need to go and say a prayer to be safe

BlasR
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ErikKaffehr

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #358 on: September 26, 2009, 02:03:27 pm »

Hi,

Sorry, your contribution is not very meaningful. The images are there, free to test, just print them at any size you wish and draw your conclusions.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: BlasR
oh ya,,canon will be much better if you look it a mile away.

I think people need better glasses.

Here is a monster.

look the eyes,nose and mouth, at the left top

but you can't look it from a mile away.

here is with the h 50

I think the monster coming after me.

I need to go and say a prayer to be safe

BlasR
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ErikKaffehr

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Is the difference of DR on MFDB vs 35mm dslr discernible on print?
« Reply #359 on: September 26, 2009, 02:11:01 pm »

Hi!

I don't find your contribution constructive. What do you mean?

I have made this test, and anyone can do it. Have you tried and if so can you explain what you see?!

Now, if you pixel peep, you are looking at very fine detail at close range, so you can see that the area of maximal focus has more detail or more acutance. Move out a bit and the eyes cannot resolve the fine details and your visual impression is dominated DOF and "snap".

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: shelby_lewis
"Better" DoF.... says a lot to me.
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