Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Leica M9  (Read 7667 times)

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Leica M9
« on: September 10, 2009, 10:02:51 am »

Michael, thanks very much for the first hands-on overview of this exciting camera. As usual - interesting and to the point.

At 18.2 MP, the resolution difference between this and say the 1DsMKiii is not large in terms of the print size one can make with a given PPI value. So the sensor resolution in respect of MPs should not be a determinative issue for some contemplating this camera. I think the main distinguishing features would be the use of CCD rather than CMOS, the sensor design itself and the absence of the AA filter, plus whatever else they've designed-in under the hood and we don't know about. In the final analysis it's the outcomes which matter most, so it would be MOST interesting to see, once you've had the opportunity - how the apparent sharpness and visual detail of the same scene emerges on a print shot with an M9 and one of the high-end DSLRs using the best lenses each has to offer. That to me would tell the story about relative quality.

As for the cost - sure - the body is competitive, but when you look down the price list for some of those best-in-the-world Leica lenses, the total package, as one would expect, "aint't cheap".

Mark
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Lisa Nikodym

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1705
    • http://www.stanford.edu/~melkor/lisa_pictures/lisa_pictures.html
Leica M9
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 12:05:07 pm »

Please forgive an ignorant question from someone who has never used a Leica or a rangefinder before, but are all lenses for the M-series cameras prime lenses?  I looked at the compatible lens list on the Leica web site and there appeared to be no zooms.  Is that because zooms are not possible with this camera for some reason, or because they assume that anyone who wanted this camera would insist on the better image quality associated with prime lenses?

Lisa
Logged
[url=http://www.stanford.edu/~melkor/lis

Paul Sumi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1217
Leica M9
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 12:41:19 pm »

Quote from: nniko
Please forgive an ignorant question from someone who has never used a Leica or a rangefinder before, but are all lenses for the M-series cameras prime lenses?  I looked at the compatible lens list on the Leica web site and there appeared to be no zooms.

There are no continuously variable zooms.  But Leica has a 3 position TRI-ELMAR 16mm-18mm-21mm wide angle lens:

http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_s...enses/2193.html

Paul
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 12:43:12 pm by PaulS »
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Leica M9
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 01:19:21 pm »

Leica management had best be praying for Kodak's solvency.  When I saw the press release from Leica I thought that maybe Kodak will bounce back.  A look at the current financial state of the company does not bode well.  However, since Leica is a niche brand compared to the major DSLR manfacturers maybe they have stocked up on all the sensors they need for production going forward.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Leica M9
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 01:26:45 pm »

Lisa, the main problem with zooms for a rangefinder these days would be the need to also design a zoom rangefinder, otherwise you wouldn't see the FOV the lens is giving in real time as you change focal lengths. Now I seem to recall from what are now the real old days (1950s and 1960s) that someone made a clip-on rangefinder which you rotated manually to a number of discrete focal lengths as you changed primes, so at the very least one would need something like that to make it feasible. Alternatively, one sometimes found rectangluar line markings on the built-in rangefinder for an alternative focal length, but hardly ideal - one of the reasons why SLRs became so popular when they were introduced - you could actually see the FOV you would get in real time.

It's also quite likely that the Leica clientele is insufficiently interested in zooms to make the design commitment worthwhile.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 01:27:47 pm by MarkDS »
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

oriwo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
    • riwodot.de
Leica M9
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 02:48:50 pm »

... interesting review!

For nearly two weeks I sold my M8 which I've used with an Zeiss Biogon T* 2,8/25 ZM and an Leica Summarit-M 2,5/75mm. This was my third rangefinder after an Konica Hexar RF und two Mamiya 6 in the 90s. But one thing was a really shortcoming, the rangefinder precision in combination to the Summarit-M 2,5/75mm was absolutely bad. I've never seen that on my Konica or my Mamiyas. A friend of mine had the same Problem with the Summarit-M 2,5/75mm.

I hope beside much of the new improvements, like FF-sensor with 18MP, no more ir/uv-cut filter on the lens nessesary, better high iso performance, the above mentioned problem will be solved. So it would be interesting to here your experience regarding this point?

Best regards from Germany

oriwo

Lisa Nikodym

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1705
    • http://www.stanford.edu/~melkor/lisa_pictures/lisa_pictures.html
Leica M9
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 05:44:53 pm »

Thanks, Paul & Mark.  That makes a great deal of sense.

Lisa
Logged
[url=http://www.stanford.edu/~melkor/lis

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Leica M9
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 07:01:05 pm »

Quote from: MarkDS
I think the main distinguishing features would be the use of CCD rather than CMOS,

Mark,

That's a comment we hear often, but I have never seen it back up by technical explanations or measured data.

In terms of resulting images, what exactly is this difference?

Cheers,
Bernard

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Leica M9
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 08:27:12 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Mark,

That's a comment we hear often, but I have never seen it back up by technical explanations or measured data.

In terms of resulting images, what exactly is this difference?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, Je ne sais pas - that's why I went on to say that the bottom line will be comparisons which come out of a printer.
But my comment on CCD was motivated by a line in Michael's review: <<Leica, along with medium format back makers, has chosen a CCD imager rather than a CMOS for reasons of image quality at bright to moderate light levels.>>
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Leica M9
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 09:31:03 pm »

Hi,

My guess is that they choose CCD because that's what they vendor (Kodak) makes. Technically CCDs are different from CMOS. To may understanding CMOS can be read without discharging which can be used for correlated double sampling, a method needed to keep noise down. My guess is technology may matter less than implementation.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: MarkDS
Bernard, Je ne sais pas - that's why I went on to say that the bottom line will be comparisons which come out of a printer.
But my comment on CCD was motivated by a line in Michael's review: <<Leica, along with medium format back makers, has chosen a CCD imager rather than a CMOS for reasons of image quality at bright to moderate light levels.>>
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

gowin

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Leica M9
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2009, 09:38:41 pm »

Quote from: PaulS
There are no continuously variable zooms.  But Leica has a 3 position TRI-ELMAR 16mm-18mm-21mm wide angle lens:

http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_s...enses/2193.html

Paul

Technically, the Wide Angle Tri Elmar (16mm-18mm-21mm) is a zoom since it works at any intermediate position between the marked focal lengths. However, it doesn't seem like a typical zoom as on a dSLR because you can't see the effect of zoom without adjusting the accessory viewfinder. I always use the lens at the marked positions.

Mark
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Leica M9
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 05:54:58 am »

Quote from: MarkDS
Bernard, Je ne sais pas - that's why I went on to say that the bottom line will be comparisons which come out of a printer.
But my comment on CCD was motivated by a line in Michael's review: <<Leica, along with medium format back makers, has chosen a CCD imager rather than a CMOS for reasons of image quality at bright to moderate light levels.>>

Merci Mark.

I read that too, but wonder what that means.

Cheers,
Bernard

tho_mas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1799
Leica M9
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 06:30:11 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Merci Mark.

I read that too, but wonder what that means.

Cheers,
Bernard

see here: http://www.dalsa.com/corp/markets/CCD_vs_CMOS.aspx

my reading is that CCDs basically produce better uniformity, cleaner low ISO (or: less noise at native ISO whilst native ISO with CCDs is lower) and higher DR.
But, as stated in the article, the differences disappear more and more in current CMOS chips.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Leica M9
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 07:37:43 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Merci Mark.

I read that too, but wonder what that means.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think the key to more complete understanding of this statement would be a definition from the author [  ] explaining the particular attributes of image quality he considers relevant in this context.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

woof75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 581
Leica M9
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 09:07:45 am »

Quote from: MarkDS
I think the key to more complete understanding of this statement would be a definition from the author [  ] explaining the particular attributes of image quality he considers relevant in this context.

Just use a canon, nikon and a phase one and the difference is quite clear to a good eye. Maybe thats from the aa filter, don't know, all cmos sensors have them so it doesn't matter what is causing the difference but the difference is there.
Logged

douglasf13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 547
Leica M9
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 11:06:15 am »

Quote from: woof75
Just use a canon, nikon and a phase one and the difference is quite clear to a good eye. Maybe thats from the aa filter, don't know, all cmos sensors have them so it doesn't matter what is causing the difference but the difference is there.

These things are difficult to judge, because AA, CFA, format size, bit depth, lens used, converter used, etc. all play a part. Granted, on a smaller scale, many Sony users prefer the low ISO output of the CCD cameras to the CMOS cameras.
Logged

Jeremy Payne

  • Guest
Leica M9
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 11:17:37 am »

I believe one of the big trade-offs is power consumption ... CMOS is much more efficient and I don't think you could have a CCD-based DSLR that would pop off thousands of frames on one battery.
Logged

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1499
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com
Leica M9
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 11:57:00 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I believe one of the big trade-offs is power consumption ... CMOS is much more efficient and I don't think you could have a CCD-based DSLR that would pop off thousands of frames on one battery.


Well CMOS are more expensive. They are just very expensive compared to CCD to create and make in good quality. It is easier to develop a good CCD than a CMOS.
Logged
Christopher Hauser
[email=chris@hauser-p

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Leica M9
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 01:19:26 pm »

Was the case, but the cost gap has closed very considerably as the technology matured, from all that I've read.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Leica M9
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 02:44:17 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
That's a comment we hear often, but I have never seen it back up by technical explanations or measured data.

In terms of resulting images, what exactly is this difference?
I cannot answer the second question, and quality of implementation might overwhelm the structural differences between the two sensor types in question:
1) Full Frame CCD as from Kodak http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=14425 and Dalsa.
Here "Full Frame" is a sensor type, not a size description!
2) Active pixel sensors, usually CMOS but in Panasonic's case NMOS, and generically called CMOS.
The basic difference are embodied in the full description "active pixel CMOS"; there used to be passive pixel CMOS, but it sucked, so Eric Fossum and his colleagues at JPL invented the active pixel approach.  All CCD's are all passive devices.

But to the first question, at some length:

The active pixel difference is that there is charge amplification done right at the pixel, or more precisely as part of the transfer of signal from each photosite directly to a "sense capacitor" at the edge of the sensor. In the basic design this is a fixed amplification so that the sense capacitor at the sensor's edge gets twice or more the charge that is in the photosite. Some recent designs have a variable charge gain, so that ISO speed can be adjusted at this stage(*). This amplification makes the signal less sensitive to noise during the rest of the analog processing, so at high ISO speeds in particular it can improve signal to noise ratios. And indeed, active pixel sensors, both CMOS and NMOS seem to do better at high ISO speeds.

A full frame CCD is a passive device and with no extra wiring to support video output, so the photosites are very simple, with a greater proportion of the photosite area available for detecting light and storing photo-electrons. This potentially improves well capacity and thus maximum signal strength, favorable for better S/N ratio when the sensor gets full exposure: at low, base ISO speed. The downside is that the charge must be transferred, unamplified, off the sensor, to off-board amplifiers, and this transfer is done in thousands of hops from photosite to neighboring photosite, first down to the edge and then along the edge to a read-put point. So more noise is likely to be introduced before the amplification, particularly to weak high ISO signals, and this "transport noise" then gets amplified along either the signal.

Note another difference:
- active pixel (CMOS) sensors have thousands of small amplifiers on-chip operating in parallel at relatively low speeds, processing thousands of pixels per second
- CCD's have a small number off-chip (and so potential higher quality) amplifiers than have to operate at far higher rates, processing millions of pixels per second.

All that leads to the prediction that a good FF CCD will be better at low ISO speeds, for DR in particular, while a good active pixel sensor will be better at higher ISO speeds. (Equal pixel size etc. assumed!)
However, my prediction is that as device fabrication moves to ever smaller feature sizes, with the latest 35nm being a tiny fraction of SLR photosite sizes, the space occupied by the active pixel wiring is becoming less and less significant, and so good SLR-sized CMOS sensors have now or soon will have no significant disadvantage in well capacity and DR, moving them towards clear performance superiority.

Why do FF CCD's stay around? One factor apparently is that CCDs are far easier to produce in small quantities, or at least small quantities of custom variations on the same basic photosite design. The sensors unique to the M9 and S2 come to mind, but all MF sensors are in effect low volume spin-offs of CCD sensor technology which Kodak and Dalsa sell mainly to other scientific, engineering and military customers. Look at the Kodak full frame CCD sensor product listing linked above: lots of models, many never used in any camera you have ever heard of; many not even offering color. Fans of big sensors and big pixels might drool over those 70mm diagonal, 50x50mm sensors with 24 micron pixels ... only 4MP though. (They are for X-rays, so ironically are for very high ISO work.)


(*) The Sony Exmor CMOS sensors even do A/D conversion at the bottom of each column of pixels, so clearly apply ISO gain at this early stage; Canon has described a similar approach in a publication about a research prototype sensor, but I do not know if any current product does it this way. My guess is "yes" for the 7D sensor at least.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 02:47:14 pm by BJL »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up