Topic: Leica X1 (Read 15031 times)

JohnBrew · « **on:** September 09, 2009, 11:07:25 am »

For me, this is the exciting camera of those just announced by Leica. The M9 and S2 were pretty much known commodities before the official announcement. The X1 seems to be a true successor of the M legacy - a small, unobtrusive camera with high specifications. And it's being built by Leica - it's not a Panasonic copycat. If they can keep the price below two grand it should sell like hotcakes.

Kenneth Sky · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:13:16 am »

Michael
I take it from the pictures that an OVF is an optional add on. Is it physically (or fiscally) impossible to have an OVF built into a large sensor mirrorless digital camera?

BJL · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:24:38 am »

There are now five "nearly pocketable" cameras with DSLR size sensors, the Sigma DP1 and DP2, Olympus EP1, Panasonic GF1 and Leica X1, and they all have something else in common: no viewfinder built-in, only an LCD and optional accessory OVF or EVF.

It seems that building in any kind of adequate VF into these sleek, small bodies is very difficult, despite smaller compacts having them, but I am not sure why.

- Is it the fact that the lens, sensor and the optical cavity between them overall takes up a lot more volume inside the camera body that in smaller sensor compacts, so these bodies actually have less room left over than some compacts for a worthwhile built-in VF?

- Is it the goal of "sleekness": that a VF of adequate performance would be require a lump on top, as in the G1?

- Is it a judgement that a large proportion of potential customers will be comfortable with the "two-eyed" (rear screen) composition tool, and prefer the reduced bulk achieved by omitting a "one-eyed" VF?

- Or something else?

Olympus has hinted at its next m4/3 body having an EVF without being much bigger than the EP1 ... but maybe that will be an accessory as on the GF1.

Ben Rubinstein · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:27:05 am »

230K screen. Fixed slow lens. $2K.

No thanks.

BJL · « **Reply #4 on:** September 09, 2009, 11:52:13 am »

Quote from: pom

230K screen. Fixed slow lens. $2K.

I have not seen an X1 price yet, but I agree that the Panasonic GF1 with 20/1.7 should easily win on low light performance (and shallow DOF options) while giving about the same FOV and pixel count, so the Leica lens magic will have to be powerful. (And ironically the Panasonic but not the Leica can use the "Leica" 45/2.8 macro lens for m4/3.)

Morris Taub · « **Reply #5 on:** September 09, 2009, 12:04:10 pm »

Quote from: JohnBrew

For me, this is the exciting camera of those just announced by Leica. The M9 and S2 were pretty much known commodities before the official announcement. The X1 seems to be a true successor of the M legacy - a small, unobtrusive camera with high specifications. And it's being built by Leica - it's not a Panasonic copycat. If they can keep the price below two grand it should sell like hotcakes.

Sean Reid writes it is designed by Leica and built in Japan.

Update : I just wanted to add that I went back today, 1 octobre '09, to Sean's review, part one, and he has changed it to read '...designed by Leica and made in germany'...

not sure when he changed it...

Bill VN · « **Reply #6 on:** September 09, 2009, 02:12:19 pm »

$2,000 (USD?) for a fixed-lens, 12 MP, APC sensor point-and-shoot with only an Elmarit Lens, not even a Vario-Summicron as on the D-Lux 4? This must be someone's idea of a joke.

JohnBrew · « **Reply #7 on:** September 09, 2009, 02:31:49 pm »

Quote from: momo2

Sean Reid writes it is designed by Leica and built in Japan.

That's not what the Leica man said in the televised announcement.

MarkL · « **Reply #8 on:** September 09, 2009, 02:32:05 pm »

Quote from: Bill VN

$2,000 (USD?) for a fixed-lens, 12 MP, APC sensor point-and-shoot with only an Elmarit Lens, not even a Vario-Summicron as on the D-Lux 4? This must be someone's idea of a joke.

Looks like leica's poor history with p&s cameras is set to continue.

jasonrandolph · « **Reply #9 on:** September 09, 2009, 05:09:04 pm »

Hmm... fixed lens, 12MP, no built-in OVF, APS-C sensor, and the same price as a full-frame, 24.5MP Sony A850 DSLR (with no lens of course)? I'll take the Sony. Each has different purposes of course, but there are cheaper options than the Leica out there.

K.C. · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:17:58 am »

Quote from: jasonrandolph

Hmm... fixed lens, 12MP, no built-in OVF, APS-C sensor, and the same price as a full-frame, 24.5MP Sony A850 DSLR (with no lens of course)? I'll take the Sony. Each has different purposes of course, but there are cheaper options than the Leica out there.

I agree completely. The time honored tradition of over pricing continues at Leica but the market has changed and may not support it.

I've owned and shot Leicas. I loved them, but moved on and never regretted the features and diversity I gained for the same money with another brand.

For the me the fixed lens is the downfall of the X1.

K.C. · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:24:14 am »

Quote from: JohnBrew

And it's being built by Leica - it's not a Panasonic copycat. If they can keep the price below two grand it should sell like hotcakes.

I've worked with a lot of Panasonic professional gear over the last 20 years and it's always been top quality and extremely dependable. If they can build it to Leica's specs I see no reason to believe it's inferior.

NikoJorj · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2009, 11:55:11 am »

Quote from: BJL

It seems that building in any kind of adequate VF into these sleek, small bodies is very difficult, despite smaller compacts having them, but I am not sure why.

I do completely agree : the few fixed-focal film compacts I owned last millenium had all a big (but not so bulky) and clear Galileo finder.
I understand such a finder may not be realistic with a zoom, but with a fixed focal?

Oh, but after all it's not that much of a problem...

Guillermo Luijk · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:42:18 pm »

DPreview says the entire body is made of metal, but what about the fixed lens? plastic or metallic?

BR

Peter_DL · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2009, 02:59:42 pm »

Anyone remember the Leica Minilux Zoom, it came out some years ago and some time after the fix-focal 40/2.4 Minilux
… black Titanium body, Bogner edition, 35mm-FF-film-sensor .

One of my all-time most used cameras, even though it was already manufactured by Panasonic.

Well yes, this Red-dot-thing. Expensive but inspiring.

Peter

--

BJL · « **Reply #15 on:** September 10, 2009, 03:40:37 pm »

Quote from: NikoJorj

... the few fixed-focal film compacts I owned last millenium had all a big (but not so bulky) and clear Galileo finder.

Good point. The m4/3 designers have a pass but for the Sigma DP1 and DP2 and the Leica X1, the point might be that those film cameras *needed* an OVF, but for the digital compacts, the LCD makes a peep-hole VF at least somewhat less essential, and so it gets sacrificed to further size reduction.

Craig Arnold · « **Reply #16 on:** September 10, 2009, 04:44:44 pm »

First of all it's not that slow. A 2.8 Leica lens is generally the equivalent of a 1.4 by anyone else because you have to stop them down 2 stops before they get usable. Leica lenses are usable wide open.

It seems likely that it has the Nikon 12Mp sensor. The same one as the D90. So that means completely usable up to ISO3200.

For this type of camera that should be just fine. 1/30s, ISO3200, F2.8. Heck that's good enough for me, and about 2.5 stops better than I can get with my usual film setup.

If the lens is right then this camera will produce wonderful A4 and pretty decent A3 prints. That's really all I need. I have found that the move from a 5D to 5D2 has gained me very little. I simply don't need those extra pixels. (The upgrade has been worth it in other ways though.)

If I can make the adjustment from 50mm-e to 36mm-e then I may not need the M9 after all. $2000 is pretty cheap compared to the cost of an M9 with even one Leica lens. I am definitely in the market for an X1 or an M9, the X1 might be good enough.

BJL · « **Reply #17 on:** September 11, 2009, 02:56:38 pm »

Quote from: peripatetic

First of all it's not that slow. A 2.8 Leica lens is generally the equivalent of a 1.4 by anyone else because you have to stop them down 2 stops before they get usable. Leica lenses are usable wide open.

A better way to say that is that other f/1.4 lenses (even primes?) are in your opinion effectively limited to f/2.8 as performance is so bad at larger apertures, and other f/2.8 lenses are effectively useful only at f/5.6 or slower. Maybe, but it seems a gross generalization to claim that every other lens maker trails a full two stops behind Leica in performance at and near maximum aperture.

Quote from: peripatetic

It seems likely that it has the Nikon 12Mp sensor.

I think you mean the Sony Exmor 12MP sensor: Sony claims it as its own with no reference to Nikon input as far as I can see, and I have not seen any Nikon claim to this sensor's design:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/te...me/cmos_01.html

Nemo · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2009, 08:02:17 pm »

The main problem is for me manual focus operation. It is not practical on the X1.

Two suggestions easily doable by firmware programming:

1. Ricoh's manual focus system:

You can pre-select three distances (1m, 3m, 5m) and pressing a button or turning the wheel you will jump from one of these pre-selected distances to the next. A variant is a button which would leads to the hyperfocal distance, for your selected aperture.

2. Clasical DoF markings simulation:

On the LCD you get a line with the distance scale (from 0 to infinity). Then, a mark points to the selected focus distance, AND two additional marks (at the left and to the right) point to the limits of the DoF for the selected aperture and distance. In this way you can select a hyperfocal distance, or a particular DoF range (for instance, from 1m to 5m). Then, turn the LCD off and make pictures.

Leica should adopt one or the two solutions for a fast manual focus operation without LCD or viewfinder assistance, just like you can do with lenses with DoF markins.

Craig Arnold · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:18:38 am »

Quote from: BJL

A better way to say that is that other f/1.4 lenses (even primes?) are in your opinion effectively limited to f/2.8 as performance is so bad at larger apertures, and other f/2.8 lenses are effectively useful only at f/5.6 or slower. Maybe, but it seems a gross generalization to claim that every other lens maker trails a full two stops behind Leica in performance at and near maximum aperture.

Yes that's what I meant. If I can't commit gross generalisations on internet forums where can I?

Quote from: BJL

I think you mean the Sony Exmor 12MP sensor: Sony claims it as its own with no reference to Nikon input as far as I can see, and I have not seen any Nikon claim to this sensor's design:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/te...me/cmos_01.html

Yes, that's what I meant. If I can't commit gross errors of fact on internet forums where can I?

In any event you understood me perfectly. An f2.8 lens with a sensor capable of good results at high ISO is not necessarily a deal killer for the X1. It could still be a pretty sweet camera.

Author Topic: Leica X1 (Read 15031 times)