Leaf AFI 7 upgrade offer with Phase One status

[rsanchez28]

Back in August 2008, I bought a Leaf AFI 7 camera with the written promise from Leaf that I could upgrade to the Leaf AFI 10 with $4000.  I specifically signed a form which I then faxed to my Leaf representative.  I was told several months back that upgrading to the Leaf AFI 10 was going slower than usual given there were some manufacturing problems with the sensor chip.  

I've been out of the loop for some time and just discovered that F&H are out of business and that Leaf has been bought out by Phase One.  Have any other photographers managed to get Phase One to provide some upgrade pathway for this camera if you were on the waiting list like I was?  Are we all screwed?  What now?  

I contacted a Calument Photo rep who contacted Phase One who then told me my upgrade promise from Leaf is null.  I expected a better response from Phase One.

Any help.

Rich

[Graham Mitchell]

and that Leaf has been bought out by Phase One.

That's a common misconception. Phase did not buy Leaf. They set up a new company called Leaf Imaging which bought some brand and product names and other assets from Leaf.

[Nemo]

so, Leaf no longer exist?

[Steve Hendrix]

Back in August 2008, I bought a Leaf AFI 7 camera with the written promise from Leaf that I could upgrade to the Leaf AFI 10 with $4000.  I specifically signed a form which I then faxed to my Leaf representative.  I was told several months back that upgrading to the Leaf AFI 10 was going slower than usual given there were some manufacturing problems with the sensor chip.  

I've been out of the loop for some time and just discovered that F&H are out of business and that Leaf has been bought out by Phase One.  Have any other photographers managed to get Phase One to provide some upgrade pathway for this camera if you were on the waiting list like I was?  Are we all screwed?  What now?  

I contacted a Calument Photo rep who contacted Phase One who then told me my upgrade promise from Leaf is null.  I expected a better response from Phase One.

Any help.

Rich

Rich:

Unfortunately when companies get shut down and then are bought by other companies, most previous policies are necessarily null and void, due to the terms and negotiations of taking over liabilities and assets. This is a practical matter for a company purchasing another. The company that has been struggling could have been making all sorts of promises to customers - many of these promises could have contributed to the financial condition of the company leading to it's demise in the first place. Or as things become more dire, practical business decisions sometimes fly out the window, inventories are priced at move it out prices, etc. These are often unsustainable practices that a purchasing new ownership would have nothing to do with.

If Phase One is not honoring agreements that Leaf had previously made to customers I don't see that as the fault of Phase One. They made a financial investment - you can call it a purchase or whatever you want, Phase One now owns all distribution rights, and owns or has access to IP and personnel talent, so for all practical purposes, they own Leaf. They did not purchase Leaf's business decisions or business plan. Their objective is to ensure that Leaf is able to move forward as a profitable division of Phase One. Taking an AFi 7 back in trade for an AFi II 10 for $4,000 is a money loser for them. An AFi 7 might be street priced at, say $14,000, and an AFiII-10 sells for $32,000. So, this transaction potentially results in a loss of $14,000.

Unfortunately, this doesn't help you in the slightest. Regarding your written promise from Leaf, was there an expiration date or a term put on the promise?


Nemo - yes Leaf still exists as a division of Phase One. We have been taking orders for Leaf product for more than a month now.


Steve Hendrix

[geesbert]

I can't believe Leaf would make promises and would not keep them.  

leaf disaster

[BJL]

That's a common misconception. Phase did not buy Leaf. They set up a new company called Leaf Imaging which bought some brand and product names and other assets from Leaf.

And as the "Leaf" that sold the camera was owned by Kodak at that time, the responsibility should fall to Kodak to honor the promises of its subsidiaries, unless Phase One assumed responsibility as part of the deal. It is not as if Kodak went out of business or can claim bankruptcy protection.

[tho_mas]

http://www.leaf-deutschland.de/index.html
google translation:

Leaf is back!
and we are pleased to announce that Leaf Imaging included the production
has and we can start within 14 days upon delivery of the APTUS II series.
Also, we will inform you about all the news.
Simply enter your email address here and we keep you informed of Leaf products
and software and interesting around Leaf up to date.

http://www.leaf-deutschland.de/News.html
google translation: http://translate.google.de/translate?u=htt...de&ie=UTF-8

[Steve Hendrix]

Nemo - yes Leaf still exists as a division of Phase One. We have been taking orders for Leaf product for more than a month now.


Steve Hendrix

I should mention that we have not yet delivered any units from these orders but expect to in September, per the latest information we have received.


Steve Hendrix

[EricWHiss]

I can't believe Leaf would make promises and would not keep them.  

leaf disaster

There's lots of information in your thread Randal,  but I don't think that everyone that reads it will come to the same conclusion you have.  In your own words, Leaf refunded the full amount...just not to you, but to the leasing company as would be expected.  And you wrote in your own words you didn't read up on the lease paperwork you signed.  



Steve,
Will the AFi-10's be available?
Eric

[Steve Hendrix]

There's lots of information in your thread Randal,  but I don't think that everyone that reads it will come to the same conclusion you have.  In your own words, Leaf refunded the full amount...just not to you, but to the leasing company as would be expected.  And you wrote in your own words you didn't read up on the lease paperwork you signed.  



Steve,
Will the AFi-10's be available?
Eric

From what I know at this point, only Aptus II 10, not AFi II 10. I believe until the AFi/Hy6 camera system resurrects (if), it has been determined not to provide any new product based on that system (my supposition). Time will tell.


Steve Hendrix

[pixjohn]

Rich:

Nemo - yes Leaf still exists as a division of Phase One. We have been taking orders for Leaf product for more than a month now.


Steve Hendrix

I shoot with a Leaf back, but who in there right mind would have ordered a Leaf back this past month? I just don't believe someone with a clue would order any Leaf products at this time.

[Steve Hendrix]

I shoot with a Leaf back, but who in there right mind would have ordered a Leaf back this past month? I just don't believe someone with a clue would order any Leaf products at this time.

Digital backs still get purchased from years ago, even from manufacturers who aren't even making digital back anymore - Kodak Pro Backs, etc, you name it. Granted, it's one thing to grab a $3,000 Kodak Pro Back off eBay as opposed to plunking down $15K - $30K on a Leaf back, but the only negative comparison is the cost. The technology behind Leaf products is very attractive to many, and with the announcement of the Phase One acquisition, their future is now moving forward compared to 4 months ago when all we knew was that Kodak had shut down the division. All that needed to be worked out was the merging of personnel and technology assets with that of Phase One and the worldwide distribution and new pricing agreements (not that that was a small thing).

There's no reason for anyone who values what Leaf brings to the table to not purchase if they have a mind to do so. With our close relationship with Phase One, and our respect for Leaf products and technology, we have been closely following the status as Leaf is revved back up. Product from those orders we accepted in August is expected to ship within September.


Steve Hendrix

[pixjohn]

I never stated Leaf was not a great product. With all the issue's I personally had to work through, I still think my Aptus 75 is a great back. What I am saying is, what idiot would put money down on a back when the news of  everyone at Leaf being let go. Even now that Phase owns leaf, I would still hold off until I know what's happening with the Leaf products and software.

[Steve Hendrix]

I never stated Leaf was not a great product. With all the issue's I personally had to work through, I still think my Aptus 75 is a great back. What I am saying is, what idiot would put money down on a back when the news of  everyone at Leaf being let go. Even now that Phase owns leaf, I would still hold off until I know what's happening with the Leaf products and software.

New products are forthcoming, and Leaf Capture will continue to be supported - at least for the immediate future. Whether Capture One and Leaf Capture eventually pull the strengths from each other and become a cohesive platform is unknown at this time but wouldn't be totally unexpected.


Steve Hendrix

[geesbert]

..... at least for the immediate future....

That's a statement, so any leaf User is totally safe for the next fortnight...

[Doug Peterson]

That's a statement, so any leaf User is totally safe for the next fortnight...

You completely misunderstood his comment. The "at least for the immediate future" went with "and Leaf Capture (the software) will continue to be supported."

The implication is that as features/support for current leaf products are added to Capture One that Leaf Capture *might* *eventually* be redundant. Since if/when this happens depends on how well/quickly they are able to incorporate the strengths and support of LC into C1 it is honest to say Leaf Capture will continue to be supported and updated "at least for the immediate future". I see nothing but good news here for someone considering a Leaf back.

New Leaf users can be confident that Phase One will support them with updates to software which supports their back, service, technical support, replacement parts, repairs. Those are what was ambiguous when they were about to be closed; those are what are now secure under Phase One, and why it's perfectly logical to consider a Leaf product now.

[bcooter]

New products are forthcoming, and Leaf Capture will continue to be supported - at least for the immediate future. Whether Capture One and Leaf Capture eventually pull the strengths from each other and become a cohesive platform is unknown at this time but wouldn't be totally unexpected.

So bottom line is if you buy a Leaf in August it's  "planned" on delivery date is September?

Dealers are taking orders on new Leaf backs but not yet delivering product?

Are these old Leaf dealers, new Phase/Leaf dealers, or both and what is exactly that September date, let's hope there is a year time stamped on the invoice.

Leaf capture might be eventually rolled into C-1, it might not, but so far updates to LC11 are planned?

If you bought a Leaf 2 days before Phase acquired the "assets" you have to get service through Kodak, not Leaf,  not Phase.

If you buy a Leaf 2 days after Phase acquired the "assets" you can get service through Leaf or Phase, as long as it's not an AFI which is no longer supported?

Well, that's clear.

A question, what happens if you buy a new Leaf and Phase sells the "assets" to someone else, not that anything announced in medium format land ever changes from announcement to delivery. (insert smiley face here).


 BC

[Steve Hendrix]

So bottom line is if you buy a Leaf in August it's  "planned" on delivery date is September?

Dealers are taking orders on new Leaf backs but not yet delivering product?

Are these old Leaf dealers, new Phase/Leaf dealers, or both and what is exactly that September date, let's hope there is a year time stamped on the invoice.

Leaf capture might be eventually rolled into C-1, it might not, but so far updates to LC11 are planned?

If you bought a Leaf 2 days before Phase acquired the "assets" you have to get service through Kodak, not Leaf,  not Phase.

If you buy a Leaf 2 days after Phase acquired the "assets" you can get service through Leaf or Phase, as long as it's not an AFI which is no longer supported?

Well, that's clear.

A question, what happens if you buy a new Leaf and Phase sells the "assets" to someone else, not that anything announced in medium format land ever changes from announcement to delivery. (insert smiley face here).


 BC

Yes.


Ok, just kidding a little.

Specifically:

Yes, orders taken in August are expected in September. This is due to the many distribution arrangements that have had to be worked out around the globe, including the USA. This is not due to any product delays (for a change).

Dealers, including Capture Integration, will deliver Leaf product from any existing and ensuing orders as soon it begins flowing through the established distribution channels, expected shortly.

Purchases can be made through any authorized Leaf dealer via the authorized distributor. In some cases, these may be existing Leaf dealers, in other cases new Leaf dealers. In the USA, if a Leaf dealer was previously authorized through Mac Group, it is generally assumed they would continue, pursuant to previous agreements, expectations, etc. If a dealer has been a Phase One dealer, it is possible they may now also be a Leaf dealer, authorized through Phase One USA.

Regarding LC11 (Leaf Capture SW), I believe there will be clarification on that topic soon in terms of updates, etc. But it wouldn't surprise me to see a consolidated application for both Phase One and Leaf platforms at some point.

Any Leaf products purchased via Phase One distributorship are serviced by Phase One. Any products serviced via Mac Group distributorship are serviced by Mac Group. Any dealer will that you purchase from will know this. This includes all Leaf products, regardless of camera platform, AFi, Hasselblad, Contax, Mamiya, etc.


Steve Hendrix

[hubell]

Any Leaf products purchased via Phase One distributorship are serviced by Phase One. Any products serviced via Mac Group distributorship are serviced by Mac Group. Any dealer will that you purchase from will know this. This includes all Leaf products, regardless of camera platform, AFi, Hasselblad, Contax, Mamiya, etc.

Steve Hendrix

Is the warranty issued on the Leaf product  purchased through a Phase One dealer a warranty issued by the Phase One parent company or by the new legal entity formed by Phase One to "purchase" the Leaf assets(i.e., a legal entity with marginal net worth at best)?
If I were thinking about buying any Leaf product today, I would make damn sure that the warranty came from the Phase One parent company. Why? Reread the first post in this thread.

[KAHA]

Any Leaf products purchased via Phase One distributorship are serviced by Phase One. Any products serviced via Mac Group distributorship are serviced by Mac Group. Any dealer will that you purchase from will know this. This includes all Leaf products, regardless of camera platform, AFi, Hasselblad, Contax, Mamiya, etc.


Steve Hendrix

Hi Steve,

What's the price for a Leaf Aptus-II 7 and Aptus-II 10 in Mamiya & Hasselblad mounts?

I saw this at B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6119...al_SLR_Kit.html is this indicative of the current retail for the DL33?  

and does phase one include support, replacement, warranty similar to the B&H spec..........    
   
    * 2-Year Camera Body Warranty

    * 1-Year Lens Warranty

    * 1-Year Digital Back Warranty for the DL33, Aptus-II 7, Aptus-II 10 and can you buy and how much for the extended phase one 2 & 3 year warranty for these products?

Thanks for your help, is appreciated