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Author Topic: Epson K3 ink cartridge stability  (Read 5749 times)

Arlen

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Epson K3 ink cartridge stability
« on: September 02, 2009, 03:39:07 pm »

I have an Epson 3800 printer that I bought and set up in Jan. '07. Shortly after that I got involved in a big long-term project that kept me from doing much printing--just enough to keep the nozzles clear. Now the cartridges are about half empty or a little less, but they have an expiration date of 04/09. Test prints show a quite noticeable green shift (under a Solux lamp) compared to prints of the same image made on the same paper (Premium Luster) using exactly the same color-managed protocol and profile (Epson's Pro38_PLPP profile) as when the printer was first set up. Original prints right after the printer was set up were (and looking at them now, still are) dead-on neutral, and match the screen images on my calibrated NEC LCD2690-SV monitor.

The tests point to changes in the in the ink cartridges. I removed them all, shook them, replaced them and printed again. No change. Hoping to avoid throwing away all 9 of the still half-full (but expired) cartridges, I guessed that the magenta cartridge was bad/weak, leading to a green tint. So I bought just a new magenta cartridge, and replaced the old one. But a new test print looks very slightly more green, if anything.

So it's not the fault of the magenta cartridge. I'm considering replacing the other cartridges one at a time, trying to avoid buying a whole new set of cartridges and completely wasting the old ones. Is there any information on which ink colors tend to change first, so I can start with the least stable cartridge? Or is this a complete waste of time, and I should bite the bullet and replace them all at once at $50 a pop?
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Steven Draper

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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2009, 03:56:05 pm »

Quote from: Arlen
I have an Epson 3800 printer that I bought and set up in Jan. '07. Shortly after that I got involved in a big long-term project that kept me from doing much printing--just enough to keep the nozzles clear. Now the cartridges are about half empty or a little less, but they have an expiration date of 04/09. Test prints show a quite noticeable green shift (under a Solux lamp) compared to prints of the same image made on the same paper (Premium Luster) using exactly the same color-managed protocol and profile (Epson's Pro38_PLPP profile) as when the printer was first set up. Original prints right after the printer was set up were (and looking at them now, still are) dead-on neutral, and match the screen images on my calibrated NEC LCD2690-SV monitor.

The tests point to changes in the in the ink cartridges. I removed them all, shook them, replaced them and printed again. No change. Hoping to avoid throwing away all 9 of the still half-full (but expired) cartridges, I guessed that the magenta cartridge was bad/weak, leading to a green tint. So I bought just a new magenta cartridge, and replaced the old one. But a new test print looks very slightly more green, if anything.

So it's not the fault of the magenta cartridge. I'm considering replacing the other cartridges one at a time, trying to avoid buying a whole new set of cartridges and completely wasting the old ones. Is there any information on which ink colors tend to change first, so I can start with the least stable cartridge? Or is this a complete waste of time, and I should bite the bullet and replace them all at once at $50 a pop?

This is just a thought but would there be a fair amount of ink from the old cartridge left in the ink lines?


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Arlen

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Epson K3 ink cartridge stability
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2009, 04:44:57 pm »

Quote from: Steven Draper
This is just a thought but would there be a fair amount of ink from the old cartridge left in the ink lines?

Thanks for the thought. On the chance you might be on to something, I ran a head cleaning cycle and then repeated the print test. Unfortunately, no change; still has the green tint.
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BobDavid

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2009, 08:30:35 pm »

Quote from: Arlen
I have an Epson 3800 printer that I bought and set up in Jan. '07. Shortly after that I got involved in a big long-term project that kept me from doing much printing--just enough to keep the nozzles clear. Now the cartridges are about half empty or a little less, but they have an expiration date of 04/09. Test prints show a quite noticeable green shift (under a Solux lamp) compared to prints of the same image made on the same paper (Premium Luster) using exactly the same color-managed protocol and profile (Epson's Pro38_PLPP profile) as when the printer was first set up. Original prints right after the printer was set up were (and looking at them now, still are) dead-on neutral, and match the screen images on my calibrated NEC LCD2690-SV monitor.

The tests point to changes in the in the ink cartridges. I removed them all, shook them, replaced them and printed again. No change. Hoping to avoid throwing away all 9 of the still half-full (but expired) cartridges, I guessed that the magenta cartridge was bad/weak, leading to a green tint. So I bought just a new magenta cartridge, and replaced the old one. But a new test print looks very slightly more green, if anything.

So it's not the fault of the magenta cartridge. I'm considering replacing the other cartridges one at a time, trying to avoid buying a whole new set of cartridges and completely wasting the old ones. Is there any information on which ink colors tend to change first, so I can start with the least stable cartridge? Or is this a complete waste of time, and I should bite the bullet and replace them all at once at $50 a pop?

I wouldn't worry about it. Just use them until they run out. The worst think that can happen is that the nozzles might clog a bit more due to the viscosity of the ink thickening.
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Arlen

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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2009, 11:51:56 pm »

Quote from: BobDavid
I wouldn't worry about it. Just use them until they run out. The worst think that can happen is that the nozzles might clog a bit more due to the viscosity of the ink thickening.

Unfortunately the immediate problem is inaccurate color, not damage to the printer etc. That's why I'm trying to figure out which cartridge(s) is the most likely culprit, if there is any evidence that some are more unstable than others.
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bill t.

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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 12:16:35 am »

Forgive my ignorance but does the 3800 have ink feed lines, and have you printed enough to clear them of ink that may have settled out in the interim?  Lacking any other ideas you could print a few square feet of pure magenta on some scrap to clear the old ink.
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 12:21:05 am »

Hmmm...  I've not heard of archival ink (stable for generations in a print) going bad only 5 months after the expiration date, but you've gone through exactly the steps I'd suggest trying, including looking at the magenta cartridge.

Can you make any neutral prints?  B&W?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 12:21:31 am by bradleygibson »
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Arlen

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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 03:01:38 am »

Maybe just a bit more info here would help. First, through this entire process, the nozzle check print patterns have looked normal; no gaps etc. I've never experienced a clog with the printer; the nozzle checks have always looked good. Recently, as I've encountered this color change problem, I've run the printer through several head cleaning cycles at various points, but none of them has made a difference. I'm not sure how much ink may be in the lines, but it seems like these head cleaning cycles should have cleared out any old ink and pumped ink from the new cartridge into the heads.

I've printed several test prints that are composites of various neutral gray tones, saturated and unsaturated colors, and skin tones. One of the test images is from Andrew Rodney (Digital Dog), and another is from Onsight. I always print these images after every major change to the printing process: ink cartridge changes, new profiles, new papers. And I save them for later comparisons. The latest prints on several papers, using previously tested profiles all look very similar to each other, and the gray neutral areas all have a similar green tint. Other colors are affected more subtly--e.g., skin tones become a little less magenta/red.

All this leads me to believe the problem is in the printer. Since the nozzle test patterns are good, and I've run repeated head cleaning cycles, it appears the printer is functionally normally mechanically, as far as I can tell.

That seems to leave just the inks as the problem. But, I agree that seeing easily noticeable (though not screamingly horrible) color changes only 5 months after expiration seems surprising. My worst fear is that I will spend a lot of money replacing all the cartridges, and still have the problem. Then I'll REALLY be sitting here scratching my head and wondering what to do next.

In any case, I really appreciate everyone taking the time to think about this and lend a hand.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 04:02:18 am »

Quote from: Arlen
All this leads me to believe the problem is in the printer. Since the nozzle test patterns are good, and I've run repeated head cleaning cycles, it appears the printer is functionally normally mechanically, as far as I can tell.

Usually when problems like this one are described some flaw in the color management is overlooked and in the end discovered. Double profiling etc because the driver was reinstalled etc. New batches of paper that changed in 2 years.

While cart contents may still be usable after shaking them I would be more suspicious about the ink tubes. If pigment did settle in the lines to form larger particles and you performed some heavy cleanings that debris flowing again can block your damper/sieves at the entrance to the head. The demand on ink supply isn't high with nozzle checks but shows in actual printing, most with high speed, heavy images on the largest page you can print. If you try the last and the color shift shows more to the end of the print than at the start you will need to clean-replace the dampers. If it is consistent then changing the light magenta cart for a new one could be a better remedy, often the "diluted" inks show the problem faster than the normal C and M. Inks do not thicken in the carts but what is essentialy a dispersion fluid can fall apart in pigment and ink medium.  

If it isn't a CM problem after all ......


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 02:04:23 pm »

I'm pretty confident it's not the ink changing colors.  In addition, the 4/09 date on the cartridges is unopened, I believe once you install them Epson recommends 6 months.  Many of us have gone far longer than that, but probably not with them just sitting half full for that long.

I believe if it was a matter of not enough ink getting to the nozzles, there would be symptoms beyond just a green shift ... I think you would also see some minor banding. Of course, any printer that has been sitting that long could develop issues.  Personally I would do a power cleaning with the current ink, toss all of them, and then do a power clean with the brand new inks. If there is some settling causing a problem this would be your best chance of fixing it yourself.

Anything changed in your setup since you printed last?  A new OS install?  Have your replaced the profile, or tried other paper/profile combinations?  I guess what I'm saying is this doesn't sound like a typical problem with printer itself.

I would suggest you download a known high quality test print and try printing that.  The one from Bill Atkinson is a good one.  You can examine the color ramps to see if there is any indication of minor banding. You may want to uninstall and then re-sinstall the printer drivers, which I believe will replace the Epson profiles, then try printing the print using good Epson paper and the new profile.  

GL

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Bruce Watson

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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 05:16:27 pm »

Quote from: Arlen
I have an Epson 3800 printer that I bought and set up in Jan. '07. Shortly after that I got involved in a big long-term project that kept me from doing much printing--just enough to keep the nozzles clear. Now the cartridges are about half empty or a little less, but they have an expiration date of 04/09. Test prints show a quite noticeable green shift (under a Solux lamp) compared to prints of the same image made on the same paper (Premium Luster) using exactly the same color-managed protocol and profile (Epson's Pro38_PLPP profile) as when the printer was first set up. Original prints right after the printer was set up were (and looking at them now, still are) dead-on neutral, and match the screen images on my calibrated NEC LCD2690-SV monitor.

Long period without printing anything? Sounds like pigment settling to me.  Pull the carts and gently shake them all. Then put them back in and run a few cleaning cycles to clear what ink may be left in the heads. Then try that print again. If the print is still off, the problem is elsewhere.
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Arlen

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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 04:30:37 pm »

Thanks for the additional suggestions. Some of them prompted me to consider other possibilities for the source of the problem, but none panned out.

Yesterday afternoon I called Epson technical support (maybe what I should have done to start with), and spoke with a very knowledgeable and helpful tech. I told her in detail all the things I had tried, and she agreed that I had followed the right steps for the most part. My color management workflow is correct, so the usual suspects (wrong settings in driver or PS print dialog) are not the problem. But like Wayne, she thought it unlikely the problem is with the inks changing over time. She said they have often used inks that are a year or more past the expiration date, with no discernible changes in color.

We came up with a list of things to test changing in the computer/software side of the equation. Change the USB cable, which she said can cause problems. Make changes in the Windows XP print properties dialog. Print through another application other than PS CS4 (I had already done that--printed through LightRoom with same results). Go back to CS3, which I had used to make the initial test prints when the printer was first set up. Try printing where the printer is allowed to manage color, instead of using profiles and letting PS manage color. Finally, try connecting the printer to another computer and printing from there.

I did all those things, with no change in the greenish tint in the prints. (And by the way, some of those test prints were on a version of Bill Atkinson's printer evaluation test image.) So a problem outside of the printer seems pretty well excluded. She had me run another nozzle check using the Auto setting, on glossy paper, since the laser light in the head can detect more subtle problems that way, and will automatically do cleaning cycles until it fixes them. But it found nothing wrong.

It seems the printer has somehow changed, and she still doesn't think it's an ink problem. Her suggestion is to see if new custom profiles solve it--which they probably will, but the question is for how long. That's what I'm going to do. If that doesn't work, or the color changes again over time, the only other option is to send the printer in for repair.

I'll let everyone know what happens, in case someone else runs into a similar problem and starts searching for kindred experiences. And just to be clear on the circumstances here, I'll summarize. The printer was used lightly but regularly for a little over a year and half; and manual (not auto) nozzle checks were performed every week or two. Right after printer setup, several Epson papers were tested with evaluation images--containing gray ramps, color ramps, skin tones, and saturated and unsaturated colors--using the canned Epson profiles. All were excellent, with neutral grays, and matching the calibrated monitor images. Now, new prints on all of those papers, using the same test images and the same canned Epson profiles, show a green tint. The tint is subtle enough that you might not immediately notice it if you weren't comparing to calibrated screen images and truly neutral prints; but is easy to see if you do.
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Arlen

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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 01:30:18 pm »

As promised above, I'm now adding a note to let everyone know the results of using new custom profiles. I purchased a ColorMunki spectrophotometer system, and made custom profiles for the Epson papers I've been using. As expected, these new profiles yield color that is spot-on neutral. No greenish cast. The canned Epson profiles, which originally worked fine on this printer, still yield prints with the greenish cast.

So, the problem is solved--for now. I'll have to see whether the printer is now stable, and if the new custom profiles will continue to work well over time. At least with the ability to make my own profiles now, I can make new ones if the printer output continues to change. This will be acceptable as long as any further change doesn't happen too rapidly.

Thanks again to everyone for all the advice.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 01:31:05 pm by Arlen »
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Paul Roark

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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 09:01:15 pm »

The symptoms sound like the settling I've run into routinely with wide format printers that are not used regularly.  I work mostly with B&W dedicated inksets, and B&W prints show even small color shifts, as the eye is very sensitive to such in neutral prints.  

All pigments settle.  I recently purchased a used 7800 with OEM inks in it that had not been used regularly.  The MK dmax was awful.  I pulled the cart, took a sample of ink, and then agitated the cart and took another sample.  The two samples were tested, and the pre-agitation sample was very significantly lighter.

With B&W dedicated inksets I've often see green shifts.  With dedicated B&W inskets where the magenta and cyan are blended with carbon to make a neutral ink, this problem is particularly significant.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf at page 4.  I stopped recommending blended inksets for wide format printers unless people used them regularly.

Note that the first evidence of settling and tone shifts came from users who had their wide format printers on desks or counters instead of the Epson stands.  It appears the shaking of the Epson stands actually helps to agitate the inks in the cartridges.

Note also that the settling issues are not a serious concern for desktop printers where the carts move back and forth with the heads.  They are agitated regularly with printing.

The ink in the tubes will sometimes need to be refreshed also.  A power cleaning will empty those tubes, but the carts need to be agitated before this is done.

Paul
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deanwork

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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 12:16:51 am »

Paul is right of course. Shake the carts of ALL pigments.

john



Quote from: Paul Roark
The symptoms sound like the settling I've run into routinely with wide format printers that are not used regularly.  I work mostly with B&W dedicated inksets, and B&W prints show even small color shifts, as the eye is very sensitive to such in neutral prints.  

All pigments settle.  I recently purchased a used 7800 with OEM inks in it that had not been used regularly.  The MK dmax was awful.  I pulled the cart, took a sample of ink, and then agitated the cart and took another sample.  The two samples were tested, and the pre-agitation sample was very significantly lighter.

With B&W dedicated inksets I've often see green shifts.  With dedicated B&W inskets where the magenta and cyan are blended with carbon to make a neutral ink, this problem is particularly significant.  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4K+.pdf at page 4.  I stopped recommending blended inksets for wide format printers unless people used them regularly.

Note that the first evidence of settling and tone shifts came from users who had their wide format printers on desks or counters instead of the Epson stands.  It appears the shaking of the Epson stands actually helps to agitate the inks in the cartridges.

Note also that the settling issues are not a serious concern for desktop printers where the carts move back and forth with the heads.  They are agitated regularly with printing.

The ink in the tubes will sometimes need to be refreshed also.  A power cleaning will empty those tubes, but the carts need to be agitated before this is done.

Paul
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Arlen

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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 12:30:31 am »

Useful info and good advice to keep in mind. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in earlier posts, extensive shaking of the cartridges didn't make a significant difference in this case.
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Paul Roark

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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 12:22:54 pm »

Quote from: Arlen
Useful info and good advice to keep in mind. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in earlier posts, extensive shaking of the cartridges didn't make a significant difference in this case.

But was the shaking before a power clean that would refresh the tubes?

Paul
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Arlen

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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 01:27:57 pm »

Yes it was. More than one power cleaning in fact, because at that point I was less worried about wasting ink than getting the problem fixed. I had really expected the cartridge shaking plus power cleaning to make a difference, so I was surprised when it didn't. Whatever the source of the problem is, it's stable enough to remain essentially unchanged over several weeks of fooling around with it, and can be corrected with new custom profiles.
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