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Author Topic: Output Sharpening  (Read 6929 times)

Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« on: August 31, 2009, 04:06:41 pm »

I have a brand-new Epson r2880 waiting for me at home tonight ... with a big pile of Galerie Gold Fiber Silk ready to go and a roll of Epson Premium Luster.

What's the right media setting for output sharpening these kind of finishes?

Both Glossy?
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Richowens

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 04:18:11 pm »

YES.
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djcsmith

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 04:19:02 pm »

As Jeff Shewe states in the "Camera to Print" tutorials, any paper that is coated (also called RC papers, for resin-coated) is considered "glossy", and non-coated papers are "matte".
Any of the luster papers are glossy.
Fine art papers are matte.

If you haven't bought the Camera to Print, or Lightroom 2 tutorials, they are definitely worth the money.
David

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I have a brand-new Epson r2880 waiting for me at home tonight ... with a big pile of Galerie Gold Fiber Silk ready to go and a roll of Epson Premium Luster.

What's the right media setting for output sharpening these kind of finishes?

Both Glossy?
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Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 04:34:16 pm »

Quote from: djcsmith
As Jeff Shewe states in the "Camera to Print" tutorials, any paper that is coated (also called RC papers, for resin-coated) is considered "glossy", and non-coated papers are "matte".
Any of the luster papers are glossy.
Fine art papers are matte.

What really threw me was the Ilford ... it isn't RC (is it?) ... but isn't quite matte either.


Quote from: djcsmith
If you haven't bought the Camera to Print, or Lightroom 2 tutorials, they are definitely worth the money.
I know, I know ... I'm sure this printer purchase will push me over the edge ...

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JeffKohn

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 04:41:32 pm »

Quote
As Jeff Shewe states in the "Camera to Print" tutorials, any paper that is coated (also called RC papers, for resin-coated) is considered "glossy", and non-coated papers are "matte".
Any of the luster papers are glossy.
Fine art papers are matte.
To me this guideline is likely to cause confusion, what exactly do you mean by "coated". Nobody prints on un-coated papers anymore. Even the rag fine-art papers such as Hahnemuhle Photo Rag have an inkjet coating on them.

Probably the best indication is which type of black ink you're using to print. If you're using matte black ink, use the "matte" output sharpening. If you're using the photo black ink, use the "glossy" output sharpening.

Oh, and have fun with your new toy. Printing can be addictive (but in a good way).
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Jeff Kohn
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neil snape

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 04:48:59 pm »

I think Jeff is steering in the right direction.
Some matte papers are sharper than all glossy papers, but many matte papers are soft. To keep things simple. the norm is less sharp for glossy but sometimes one has to try first. I do believe the Ilford to work best on Glossy sharp too as your other papers do.
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deanwork

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 05:32:20 pm »


That's totally bizarre. All inkjet papers are "coated". What is that supposed to mean? They are called ink receptor coatings whether they are rc, matt, photo fiber etc. Even canvas and silk is coated.  If they didn't have the coatings the dots would spread. Hahnemuhle, Crane, Innova fine art papers, etc have some of the best coatings on the rag matt papers which helps them with black point and color gamut as well as sharpness.  Now a poly coating rc media is something else. And, the baryta papers don't have plastic coatings.

The Ilford Gallerie Barya coating is very delicate will scratch very easily in and out of the printer.

john

« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 05:33:36 pm by deanwork »
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Wayne Fox

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 07:01:22 pm »

Quote from: djcsmith
As Jeff Shewe states in the "Camera to Print" tutorials, any paper that is coated (also called RC papers, for resin-coated) is considered "glossy", and non-coated papers are "matte".
Any of the luster papers are glossy.
Fine art papers are matte.

If you haven't bought the Camera to Print, or Lightroom 2 tutorials, they are definitely worth the money.
David

Well, resin coated papers don't have anything to do with the actual inkjet receptor coating, which (as has been pointed out) is on all inkjet papers.  This simply means the physical paper itself is resin coated.  Resin coated papers evolved from silver halide photography, the purpose of the resin coating was to waterproof the actual fiber paper so it was easier to process and wash the resulting prints.  It was found early on that inkjet receptor coats could be applied to very similar paper stock, and the resulting prints were very close to silver halide photograph.  In fact the "luster" finish of Epson Luster papers is pretty much identical to the "E" surface from traditional photographic printing that has been around for a few decades.

For a long time, the use of RC papers to achieve glossy finishes was the only real option.  Most other papers were "matte", and suffered when using PK inks.  Then matte black inks came along, overcoming the weak blacks on these papers using PK ink, and the resulting leap in quality using this combination overcame most objections.   The wide variety of paper choices began attracting many to this option.

That has changed dramatically in the last few years, and there are many papers today designed specifically for PK ink, thus achieving a higher gloss and indeed greater dMax, but these papers are fine art papers ... they are not RC papers.  These are a welcome addition for those who prefer the look of glossier papers and want to use PK inks for most of their work but have been stuck with the RC papers for years. The RC papers are very good and have a great look but for many the plastic feel is a turnoff.  I still use Epson Premium Luster some of the time, but I really like the look and feel of these newer papers and use them for all large high end prints.

A few examples are Ilford Galarie Gold Fibre Silk, Epson Exhibition Fiber, Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta ... these are just a few, there are many more.  Each manufacturer will tell you which black ink the paper is optimized for.  Those designed for PK ink are generally referred to as gloss or luster papers, those designed for MK ink are generally referred to as mat papers.

 I believe many use a combination of matte and glossy papers, based on the actual image itself.  Some images lend themselves to the look of matt papers, other simply look their best on a high quality gloss/luster paper.
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Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 12:47:02 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I have a brand-new Epson r2880 waiting for me at home tonight ... with a big pile of Galerie Gold Fiber Silk ready to go and a roll of Epson Premium Luster.

What a nice printer.  I made a pile of prints.
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Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2009, 01:00:23 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
What a nice printer.  I made a pile of prints.
Unbelievable ... I cursed myself.  Right after this post, I went to print one more ... just one more ...

And it jammed.  And now every time I try to print it jams.  I don't know what I did.  It is late and I'm tired ... bummer.
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KeithR

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2009, 09:56:52 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Each manufacturer will tell you which black ink the paper is optimized for.
Where? Every package of paper I've looked at only states if it uses dye or pigment ink(or both) but not which type of black for matte or glossy. Fot those new to printing or for those of us that are not quite sure of what type of paper we are really looking at, this info would be a big help.
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JeffKohn

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2009, 10:15:50 am »

Quote from: KeithR
Where? Every package of paper I've looked at only states if it uses dye or pigment ink(or both) but not which type of black for matte or glossy. Fot those new to printing or for those of us that are not quite sure of what type of paper we are really looking at, this info would be a big help.
If the paper manufacturer provides a profile for your printer, the instructions with the profile should tell you which ink and media setting to use. Generally speaking anything with gloss, semi-gloss, luster, or baryta in the name will use photo-black.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 10:16:04 am by JeffKohn »
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Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2009, 10:22:40 am »

Quote from: JeffKohn
baryta

I had a flashback to the early 80's when I opened the bag ... smelled like the good old days ...
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JeffKohn

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2009, 12:21:29 pm »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
I had a flashback to the early 80's when I opened the bag ... smelled like the good old days ...
I never worked with film or wet prints, my first impression was "This stuff smells funny".
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Jeff Kohn
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Wayne Fox

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 04:35:09 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
I never worked with film or wet prints, my first impression was "This stuff smells funny".


 

So if you're an "old timer" (to quote someone on another thread) like me, when you open a box of the new baryta paper you get nostalgic ...

If not you you exclaim ... ewww - that smells funny.

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Jeremy Payne

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 04:40:09 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox

So if you're an "old timer" (to quote someone on another thread) like me, when you open a box of the new baryta paper you get nostalgic ...

If not you you exclaim ... ewww - that smells funny.

I'm turning 40 on Saturday ... and I got pretty nostalgic when I opened the box ... so it looks like I just crossed the old-timer rubicon ...  
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BlackSmith

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 05:28:28 pm »

As a chemical engineer, I thought "...memories of O-chem labs".
And to clarify the situation, I'm pretty sure it is the hydroxide rather than the baryum giving off the smell. So Michael's smell test should be used with caution. His understanding of chemistry is rather limited (I mean this out of all due respect. He has done a great job with this web site and I'm still learning a great deal from his educational videos).
As long as I'm on the topic, he did speak out of turn with the comment "each grain of silver is... on or it's off. ie: it's a one or a zero." Correcting one little thing. He probably just mixed up silver crystals with atoms.

Back to Output Sharpening, the other day I saw a good video on Lightroom Killer Tips where he demonstrates the different amount of sharpening between Low, Standard, High.
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Schewe

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 07:32:47 pm »

Quote from: BlackSmith
Back to Output Sharpening, the other day I saw a good video on Lightroom Killer Tips where he demonstrates the different amount of sharpening between Low, Standard, High.


Matt's a good guy and he does know Lightroom very well (and he's a great instructor) but...

He's not 100% correct in this video (I'll talk to him at the next Photoshop World and tell him what he needs to know).

First off, forget what he says about output sharpening and for heaven's sake DON'T base your output sharpening on any sort of visual display on screen..seriously, I know that Matt wanted to "show something" as it relates to High, Standard and Low but forget about looking and seeing and understanding ANYTHING relating to print output sharpening..,.

I think I need to clarify something that was attributed to me regarding "coated" papers...pretty sure I said if you are using "coated papers like the old RC type papers" you want to use a Photo Black approach and thus a "Glossy" type sharpening...if you are using watercolor or anything that deploys a Matte Black ink, you would use a "Matte" sharpening...

In point of fact, glossy type papers (that use a Photo K ink) are generally capable of reproducing a lot more high frequency detail than matte type papers which is why you need a different sharpening routine for glossy and matte papers.

So, the new Photo K ink type papers do indeed need the glossy routines. The matte routines are what you want to matte papers (or watercolor papers). The guiding light regarding Epson (what I  use) is Photo K use Glossy, if you use Matte K use the Matte setting...
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 07:33:17 pm by Schewe »
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deanwork

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Output Sharpening
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 10:29:18 pm »

Quote from: JeffKohn
I never worked with film or wet prints, my first impression was "This stuff smells funny".


It was really hilarious when Ilford did something to their Baryta to make it smell like fixer. Its strong too! It got a lot of attention for sure.  I don't know if that was a thought out  marketing concept or what, ? ...that us old timers would wax  nostalgic and flash back to the glorious carcinogenic chemical days of nasty hypo and selenium toner. But I'll tell you one thing, if a silver print in my portfolio ever smelled like fix I'd consider that nightmarish to the extreme. That is a sure way to contaminate the the whole book! Wo. It's bad enough that about 70% of the silver prints out there were never washed correctly, and will eventually stain yellow, but for them to reek of fix? Ansel would turn over in his grave :-) .


john
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 10:31:13 pm by deanwork »
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