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Author Topic: I got the blues  (Read 4302 times)

Justinr

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I got the blues
« on: August 28, 2009, 11:18:28 am »

Probably not very original as a thread title but it sums up a problem I have encountered with a house interior.

Basically the house is painted a light shade of green on the inside but the camera will insist on portraying this as blue. The client is quite fussy on this point so it's become something of a headache. The camera is a Mamiya AFD with ZD back. Whether I use flash or natural light (but usually a mixture of both) the hue remains obstinately blue.

Any suggestions as to its cause or cure welcome although I have found that adjusting the white balance of the RAW file can help but it is not consistent and certainly not satisfactory in many cases no matter what light source I change it to.

Justin.
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Mark D Segal

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I got the blues
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 11:22:19 am »

From your description it sounds to me as if your colour balance is being affected by multiple light sources of differing colour temperature. The best cure for this would be to make the shots under one lighting condition only and then adjusting the raw file post-capture should give a satisfactory result. Otherwise, you would have to do some selective colour rebalancing and blending in Photoshop.
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ckimmerle

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I got the blues
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 11:27:33 am »

You might have some luck adjusting those blue and cyan tones in the hue/saturation/luminance (HSL) dialog box in ACR. It's not as selective as can be done in Photoshop, but it should work. If all else is consistent, you can do all the shots at once.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 11:28:53 am by ckimmerle »
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Justinr

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I got the blues
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 12:15:01 pm »

Thanks for the replies, I should have mentioned that the photos are for this website and you can see the sort of lighting situations I am having to overcome.

Kilross House (enter then 'more pictures' from the menu).

I am trying to preserve the view through the windows and so am using flash to fill the rooms. If I rely purely on available light I just get burnt out highlights in the window frames as can be seen in the shot of the landing. The house lights are pretty feeble and are merely switched on so they don't look dull, they make no difference to the level of illumination.

The colours of the website are taken from the walls, green for the living areas and blue for the bathrooms and kitchen. You can see the struggle I have had trying to maintain some sort of consistency.

Justin.

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Justinr

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I got the blues
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 06:23:06 pm »

I'm beginning to think it might be something in the paint for none of the other colours in the scene are affected. Might be worth trying with another camera as well to see if the same thing happens.

Justin.
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Wayne Fox

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I got the blues
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 11:49:22 pm »

The fact that it's a green color you're having problems reminds me of doing weddings (many years ago), and I got the dreaded green tuxes or bridesmaid dresses that photographed perfectly brown.  Something in the dye where we see it one color and the film saw it differently.

Never heard of this with digital, but it certainly seems possible.

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Justinr

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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 03:18:08 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
The fact that it's a green color you're having problems reminds me of doing weddings (many years ago), and I got the dreaded green tuxes or bridesmaid dresses that photographed perfectly brown.  Something in the dye where we see it one color and the film saw it differently.

Never heard of this with digital, but it certainly seems possible.


I've been poking around in Wikipedia and have came across a group of dyes used in paints and plastics etc that may be responsible-

 Wikipedia

Phthalocyanine green is a phthalocyanine blue pigment where most of the hydrogen atoms are replaced with chlorine. The strongly electronegative chlorine atoms influence the distribution of the electrons in the phthalocyanine structure, shifting its absorption spectrum. It is made by chlorination of the phthalocyanine blue as a melt of sodium chloride and aluminium chloride, to which chlorine is introduced at elevated temperature.

I'm no chemist but it occurs to me that if a chemical compound which is usually blue but a small variation in its structure can shift its spectrum then this apparent shift may not be visible to all methods of recording colour. The underlying colour of the dye is still blue and tweaking may trick the human eye into thinking it's green but the digital sensor is not so easily fooled.

Just an idea anyway.

Justin.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:21:20 am by Justinr »
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Jonathan Wienke

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I got the blues
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 02:24:44 pm »

It's 99% likely this problem is due to multiple light sources with different color temperatures. If you are shooting an exterior of a building with interior fluorescent lights, the window light will have a green cast. When there are multiple light sources in a single frame, there is no single white balance setting that will render all of the colors in the frame properly. If the shot is a mix of flash and incandescent, if you WB for the flash, the portions of the frame lit b incandescent lighting will  have a strong yellow-orange cast. If you have your white balance set for incandescent lighting, portions of the frame lit by flash will have a strong blue cast. There are only two solutions for this problem:

1. Filter all of the light sources but one so that the all match. To match flash to incandescent, you need an orange filter. To match flash to fluorescent, you need a green filter. You can either buy such filters or make your own.

2. Make multiple developments of the RAW file; one white balanced for each light source. Use layer masks to blend each rendering of the RAW into a single final image.
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Justinr

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I got the blues
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 03:04:21 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
It's 99% likely this problem is due to multiple light sources with different color temperatures. If you are shooting an exterior of a building with interior fluorescent lights, the window light will have a green cast. When there are multiple light sources in a single frame, there is no single white balance setting that will render all of the colors in the frame properly. If the shot is a mix of flash and incandescent, if you WB for the flash, the portions of the frame lit b incandescent lighting will  have a strong yellow-orange cast. If you have your white balance set for incandescent lighting, portions of the frame lit by flash will have a strong blue cast. There are only two solutions for this problem:

1. Filter all of the light sources but one so that the all match. To match flash to incandescent, you need an orange filter. To match flash to fluorescent, you need a green filter. You can either buy such filters or make your own.

2. Make multiple developments of the RAW file; one white balanced for each light source. Use layer masks to blend each rendering of the RAW into a single final image.

Unfortunately even those photos that are taken with just the one source of light still show up blue. Here is a classic example where the lighting is purely by natural light-



The skirting board and door frames are particularly badly affected.

Justin.
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Jonathan Wienke

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I got the blues
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2009, 03:16:28 pm »

Quote from: Justinr
Unfortunately even those photos that are taken with just the one source of light still show up blue. Here is a classic example where the lighting is purely by natural light-



The skirting board and door frames are particularly badly affected.

Justin.

Your white balance doesn't appear to be properly set; the entire image has a cool cast to it. What are you using to set your WB?
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Justinr

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I got the blues
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2009, 04:47:24 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
Your white balance doesn't appear to be properly set; the entire image has a cool cast to it. What are you using to set your WB?

Do you not think that the blue cast might have something to do with the reflections from the walls? This, let me assure you is the second best lit room in the house with a large window in the wall opposite the sofa (see view from sofa I have managed to get the green back by a combination of WB, slight desaturation and filters/colour channels). The Mamiya ZD also has something of a reputation for throwing green casts, not blue.

I am not convinced that it is a white balance issue because -

a, The blue is the same irrespective of the light source.

b, The problem cannot be corrected (or anywhere near) using the WB function in the Mamiya software alone, although it can help.

c, I have never had a major problem with WB with this camera before. In fact it's pretty forgiving on that front and colour temp is easily correcte.

d, The blue problem is only an issue when shooting these particular green walls. Here is another shot, same house, same day, using available light through a much smaller window. I will admit to having cleaned the colour channels in this one which has brightened it but not changed the basic colour. The walls are pretty much the right shade of pink/orange, if anything it's a little too warm.



I did not set a custom WB because it has rarely been necessary and any problems have always been easily sorted on the computer, which saves an awful lot of time, important with a budget to consider.

Justin.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 06:45:52 pm by Justinr »
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Justinr

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I got the blues
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 02:35:00 pm »


    
Anomalous reflectance would appear to be the problem-

Kodak technical sheet



While the high reflectance in the far red
and infrared is found in all colors of these dyes, the effect is
most prevalent in shades of green and blue.The far-red
reflectance neutralizes the green or blue appearance, so the
fabrics may reproduce as neutrals or warm colors.


Justin
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