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Author Topic: Frustated P25+ Moire Problems  (Read 18408 times)

PHOTO ZARA

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2009, 01:44:38 am »




I rented P30+ for a job and I can tell you shooting Interiors there's about the same percentage of moire on the carpets as there was shooting portraits...

from then on I decided to wait for a bigger sensor like P65,ooo.oo+     but never had opportunity to try it and even if I did like it, it's greedy expensive  

P65+ should be priced at 29,999.99 but definitely nothing over 30K



PS: Simon thanks for the Caprock filters tip


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amsp

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2009, 08:12:02 am »

Quote from: Snook
I guess your not shooting many models with clothing. Funny I am retouching some Lingerie images right now as we speak and every freak'n one has Moire in every type of fabric. Plus There is basically NO way of getting rid of the Pattern Moire... I have gone in and Dodged and Burned the heck out of the pattern which takes HOURS.
Other wise I have never seen any thing get rid of the pattern Moire.. going to post some examples later of what I am working on right now...
MFDB's are a has been for sure,except for the very few feilds that need it badly enough... I am keeping mine just for fine art stuff and Big Prints, and the fact that the prices have gone down so much it is not worth it to even sell it in my opinion...
I am on a P30 myself and the Moire is Horrible and it is found on many types of fabrics, not just fine woven fabric's...
Don't believe the hype. I shoot 3-4 times a week all year round usually, been slower lately and 80% of my of my shot's with any clothing have Moire!! Period.

Snook

Actually, that's what I shoot the most, and only rarely have I had problems with moire in my fashion/editorial work. And I use a P25, supposedly worse than the P30.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:12:16 am by amsp »
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Rick_Allen

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2009, 08:13:06 am »

Cheers Simon just ordered a 5.6 and got a lee system cheap on ebay, almost looking forward to the next suits shoot!!!!  
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narikin

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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2009, 09:47:07 am »

Quote from: PHOTO ZARA
I rented P30+ for a job and I can tell you shooting Interiors there's about the same percentage of moire on the carpets as there was shooting portraits...
from then on I decided to wait for a bigger sensor like P65,ooo.oo+     but never had opportunity to try it and even if I did like it, it's greedy expensive  
I use the P65+ and it still suffers badly from Moire too.

I think nearly all digital backs do - they dont want an AA filter on there, to maximize their sharpness, but anything with fabric on it - interior curtains, clothing, a man in a suit, gives you moire.
its a little better in the P65+ but not by much, let me tell you.

If any dealer tells you the P65+ does not suffer from Moire, laugh at the comment...
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2009, 01:33:14 pm »

I tested the three backs from Phase a little while ago the P30+, P40+ and the P45+ and as you can see the P40+ with the 6 micron sensor does improve things over the 6.8 sensors but it is still there no question. If i had the P25+ in this test and owning one before the P30+ it would have been the worst in the Moire dept. no doubt about it. Love the P25+ back with the big 9 micron sensors but if I was mostly shooting fashion and clothing it would be the wrong choice. The 6 micron is better for that type of work

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...8090&page=2   Look at post 96
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AlexM

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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2009, 02:40:09 pm »

One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.

Snook

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2009, 02:55:09 pm »

Quote from: Oleksiy
One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.


Absolutey agree.. Removing moire has been the MOST frustrating thing about my P30 and it drives me CRAZY.. hours wasted, I have to double conversions and mask it out becasue it is so bad I have to use the C-1 Moire removal always with both dials AS FAR UP as they can go which starts smudging clothing into skin tones and is a night mare. So I do 2 conversions and paint in the with a mask in photoshop to get rid of the color moire... then you usually have dodge and burn the pattern noise out.. Many times it is just IMPOSSIBLE to remove and I have to just shrug my sholders at the client..
Quite embarrassing really!!!
As much as I love the extra bit depth of my P30 I would NEVER have invested know what I know today and how after I bought the prices fell off the scale and the Canon 1DsMIII came out... Just not worth all the hassle for the little difference in quality.
Today I would have 1DsMIII and a 5DII for back up and rent a P65 for Special projects where High res is need for BIG prints.

Wish some one would have given me that advice instead of the people in here that totally hype up MFDB photography which about 10% of the shooters need.

Not trying to sound bitter, but I am actually a little bit.
James Russel or Russel James , not even sure what his name is sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.  
Now where I live the most everything is going web,small catalogues and Billboards are using such low DPI that it also does not matter.
I am how ever glad I have the P30 for my Huge gallery prints I have been doing lately.
I actually also thought mamiya was going to come out with a Leaf shutter lens by now also which aint happening any time soon. That is what the RZ is used for now but it is a PITA outside of the studio as it is so big and cumbersome!!

Snook
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2009, 03:05:21 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
P65+ :-)

Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)

No problem with camera movements.

Very fast.

Full frame.

No compromises comes at a cost :-)
How does the H3D11-60 (and Hasselblads in general with the phocus moire reduction) compare? Does this make the H3D11-60 the only choice for hi-res fashion/portraiture?
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AlexM

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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2009, 03:29:02 pm »

I wouldn't replace my Hasselblad with a Nikon or Canon if I had a chance. No way! Too many benefits! I totally love the system and image quality. But if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.

Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2009, 03:35:31 pm »

Quote from: Oleksiy
I wouldn't replace my Hasselblad with a Nikon or Canon if I had a chance. No way! Too many benefits! I totally love the system and image quality. But if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.
Are you saying that you have problems with moire on your Hasselblad? Do you not find the phocus Moire removal effective?
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AlexM

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2009, 04:00:15 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Are you saying that you have problems with moire on your Hasselblad? Do you not find the phocus Moire removal effective?

It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 04:03:13 pm by Oleksiy »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2009, 04:27:09 pm »

Quote from: Oleksiy
It usually helps with 90% of moire on clothes but you still have to deal with two layers and create a mask.
When the moire is on skin (usually dark-skinned models) the Phocus moire removal messes up the skin tones and creates artifacts.
So I prefer PS in most cases.


OTOH Phocus can export a layered psd. No need to do 2 conversions. There is the need to mask in the moire removal though. I use the H system 70% of the time as well the remainder I use the Nikon. There is a place for both.

@Snook
The  bottom is constantly dropping from under equipment pricing, no need (or better point) to get upset about that. Just swallow it, move on, make images and money. No point in looking back. Hindsight is always 20/20, It would have saved me a lot of money if I had it. The money I paid on MF equipment pales compared to what I have lost on other stuff...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 05:26:30 pm by Dustbak »
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Snook

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2009, 08:08:14 pm »

Quote from: Dustbak
OTOH Phocus can export a layered psd. No need to do 2 conversions. There is the need to mask in the moire removal though. I use the H system 70% of the time as well the remainder I use the Nikon. There is a place for both.

@Snook
The  bottom is constantly dropping from under equipment pricing, no need (or better point) to get upset about that. Just swallow it, move on, make images and money. No point in looking back. Hindsight is always 20/20, It would have saved me a lot of money if I had it. The money I paid on MF equipment pales compared to what I have lost on other stuff...


Your absolutley right, I had just bought when it really dropped off...:+}
I am happy with what I have and it has paid for itself over and over again, no problems there
Snook
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AlDoori

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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2009, 02:06:26 am »

Quote from: Oleksiy
if they could sell two versions of the camera one with and one without AA filter they could solve this problem once and forever. Or have a service for attaching/removing the filter.
one of the better features of the mamiya ZD was the replaceable filter. you could use the normal IR blocking filter, or a low pass/anti moire filter, or a filter for IR phtography. no other company adopted that system.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2009, 05:42:13 am »

Quote from: Oleksiy
One would think there is enough resolution in latest digital backs to sacrifice a little using an AA filter?
I think I'd prefer to do some extra sharpening when necessary than to remove the moire from almost every photo.
If the anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light over the adjacent 8 pixels, this explains why a 2 Mpx (HD 1028i) TV screen looks as high-res as a 16 Mpx photo taken on a DSLR with an AA filter.

Do you want to pay for 60 Mpx and end up with as much res as you could get with 8?
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woof75

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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2009, 06:32:14 am »

Quote from: Snook
Absolutey agree.. Removing moire has been the MOST frustrating thing about my P30 and it drives me CRAZY.. hours wasted, I have to double conversions and mask it out becasue it is so bad I have to use the C-1 Moire removal always with both dials AS FAR UP as they can go which starts smudging clothing into skin tones and is a night mare. So I do 2 conversions and paint in the with a mask in photoshop to get rid of the color moire... then you usually have dodge and burn the pattern noise out.. Many times it is just IMPOSSIBLE to remove and I have to just shrug my sholders at the client..
Quite embarrassing really!!!
As much as I love the extra bit depth of my P30 I would NEVER have invested know what I know today and how after I bought the prices fell off the scale and the Canon 1DsMIII came out... Just not worth all the hassle for the little difference in quality.
Today I would have 1DsMIII and a 5DII for back up and rent a P65 for Special projects where High res is need for BIG prints.

Wish some one would have given me that advice instead of the people in here that totally hype up MFDB photography which about 10% of the shooters need.

Not trying to sound bitter, but I am actually a little bit.
James Russel or Russel James , not even sure what his name is sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.  
Now where I live the most everything is going web,small catalogues and Billboards are using such low DPI that it also does not matter.
I am how ever glad I have the P30 for my Huge gallery prints I have been doing lately.
I actually also thought mamiya was going to come out with a Leaf shutter lens by now also which aint happening any time soon. That is what the RZ is used for now but it is a PITA outside of the studio as it is so big and cumbersome!!

Snook
just buy yourself a sony 850 or whatever it's called and a couple of primes, it'll only cost about 2500 all in I bet. Perfect.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2009, 09:19:17 am »

Quote from: Snook
sent me an e-mail telling me to buy just a Nikon before I bought the P30 but I was actually hyped up on the DB and actually thought it was supposedly way better.

Snook

I didn't think I'd written you, but found you on an old e-mail from 2007.  

What I said was that compared to any medium format back the dslrs are just easier.  I don't think that is really a revelation.  

I didn't mention moire but even in that area, the dslrs really are easier especially if you've tried to remove pattern moire from a blue shell top or sweater.

Those are oh my god moments that are almost non fixable.

Looking at that old e-mail what I really mentioned was I felt the p21+ was a nicer back to work with than my p30+ and maybe it's just because I like the look of the file better, though most of the reason is the smaller back is so much more responsive.

If medium format has any issue, something about sticking a medium format back on a camera like the Contax just changes the way it works and feels.  It kind goes from instant on, instant shoot, to slightly sluggish, slightly delayed, obviously slower and the p21 takes the contax almost back to the speed of responsiveness of shooting a film camera.

I own a lot of cameras, actually too many with 4 nikons, 4 Canons, two digital backs and a Leica and though they are all different and all have there place but 2007 to today the phase backs I use less and less, the Canons and Nikons I use more, but mostly because my work has moved to more continuous light, faster shooting and more spontaneity.  When I bought my Phase backs, especially at the time moving from Leaf and LC-10 to C-1 I felt they were a revelation.  They are solid, produce a great file when everything is completely controlled or slow and a digital tech stands guard and constantly checks files for focus and moire, but they kind of remind me of windows 2000.  They work, but they just haven't taken that huge leap that Nikon and Canon have made in the last few years and everything seems a little more work and as we all know client "requests" are much more demanding today that the were in 2007.

Last night I saw the documentary, The September Issue, which had a few quick moments of  photographers shooting for Vogue.  All used Hasselblads and some kind of digital back in studio (I think Phase), all tethered, all slower, with the standard client, stylist, makeup artist standing around a computer screen staring into the image as it came up, but once outside the photographers all had a Canon in their hands and we're just banging away non tethered.  Once again this documentary was in 2007 and the world was much different then, the book size of Vogue had grown by 100 pages, the production budgets more lavish, the time from soot to edit to final much longer.  As we all know the print publishing world has changed drastically since then.

This week we begin production on a studio and location shoot, mostly studio and I toy with the thought of dusting off the digital backs, tethering them up and shooting the studio portion with them, but as the shot list grows, the time to shoot shrinks, I'll probably just shoot the studio with the Canons, the outside locations with a Nikon, cut my on set and post production workflow in half and get on with my life.

This doesn't mean my digital backs are less workable or mysteriously produced a different file today than they did in 2007 and it doesn't mean that I don't see value in a slightly more robust file or even the 4:3 proportion for vertical images, but we are now in world where every second of the day is used up with shooting time and offers few moments for reflection, so knowing the client, the parameters of the shoot I'll probably make life as easy as possible for myself and he crew, because at the end of the day, the client will never ask if that was a Canon, Nikon, Phase or Hasselblad.

They'll just look for that one pose, the one frozen moment and in two weeks and the only magnifying glass they use will be on the invoice.

Given all of this, I don't understand your issues with the Phase.  Obviously in two years time you should have more than made your money back from your Phase back and in 2007, I don't think Phase or Mamiya had made any promises of leaf shutter lenses.  Also if in 2007 your Phase back wasn't working well for you, it was a pretty easy sell, much easier than today.

I do agree you have to take a lot of this forum talk with a grain of salt.  Everyone shoots different, everyone has different expectations.  A lot of the proponents of medium format don't shoot a lot of imagery per day, or even shoot for commerce where the responsiblities of a problematic file will fall on the photographer.

JR
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 09:33:41 am by James R Russell »
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georgl

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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2009, 09:31:48 am »

Every AA-filter always destroys information near nyquist-limit and cannot be retained by sharpening - it's an optical illusion. But aliasing which appears beyond nyquist-limit due to the lack of an AA-filter wouldn't contain any information on a filtered camera, either. So no AA-filter gives us the option to remove selective  (or better: hide) artifacts in post while retaining fine detail/microcontrast.
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woof75

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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2009, 12:54:25 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
I didn't think I'd written you, but found you on an old e-mail from 2007.  

What I said was that compared to any medium format back the dslrs are just easier.  I don't think that is really a revelation.  

I didn't mention moire but even in that area, the dslrs really are easier especially if you've tried to remove pattern moire from a blue shell top or sweater.

Those are oh my god moments that are almost non fixable.

Looking at that old e-mail what I really mentioned was I felt the p21+ was a nicer back to work with than my p30+ and maybe it's just because I like the look of the file better, though most of the reason is the smaller back is so much more responsive.

If medium format has any issue, something about sticking a medium format back on a camera like the Contax just changes the way it works and feels.  It kind goes from instant on, instant shoot, to slightly sluggish, slightly delayed, obviously slower and the p21 takes the contax almost back to the speed of responsiveness of shooting a film camera.

I own a lot of cameras, actually too many with 4 nikons, 4 Canons, two digital backs and a Leica and though they are all different and all have there place but 2007 to today the phase backs I use less and less, the Canons and Nikons I use more, but mostly because my work has moved to more continuous light, faster shooting and more spontaneity.  When I bought my Phase backs, especially at the time moving from Leaf and LC-10 to C-1 I felt they were a revelation.  They are solid, produce a great file when everything is completely controlled or slow and a digital tech stands guard and constantly checks files for focus and moire, but they kind of remind me of windows 2000.  They work, but they just haven't taken that huge leap that Nikon and Canon have made in the last few years and everything seems a little more work and as we all know client "requests" are much more demanding today that the were in 2007.

Last night I saw the documentary, The September Issue, which had a few quick moments of  photographers shooting for Vogue.  All used Hasselblads and some kind of digital back in studio (I think Phase), all tethered, all slower, with the standard client, stylist, makeup artist standing around a computer screen staring into the image as it came up, but once outside the photographers all had a Canon in their hands and we're just banging away non tethered.  Once again this documentary was in 2007 and the world was much different then, the book size of Vogue had grown by 100 pages, the production budgets more lavish, the time from soot to edit to final much longer.  As we all know the print publishing world has changed drastically since then.

This week we begin production on a studio and location shoot, mostly studio and I toy with the thought of dusting off the digital backs, tethering them up and shooting the studio portion with them, but as the shot list grows, the time to shoot shrinks, I'll probably just shoot the studio with the Canons, the outside locations with a Nikon, cut my on set and post production workflow in half and get on with my life.

This doesn't mean my digital backs are less workable or mysteriously produced a different file today than they did in 2007 and it doesn't mean that I don't see value in a slightly more robust file or even the 4:3 proportion for vertical images, but we are now in world where every second of the day is used up with shooting time and offers few moments for reflection, so knowing the client, the parameters of the shoot I'll probably make life as easy as possible for myself and he crew, because at the end of the day, the client will never ask if that was a Canon, Nikon, Phase or Hasselblad.

They'll just look for that one pose, the one frozen moment and in two weeks and the only magnifying glass they use will be on the invoice.

Given all of this, I don't understand your issues with the Phase.  Obviously in two years time you should have more than made your money back from your Phase back and in 2007, I don't think Phase or Mamiya had made any promises of leaf shutter lenses.  Also if in 2007 your Phase back wasn't working well for you, it was a pretty easy sell, much easier than today.

I do agree you have to take a lot of this forum talk with a grain of salt.  Everyone shoots different, everyone has different expectations.  A lot of the proponents of medium format don't shoot a lot of imagery per day, or even shoot for commerce where the responsiblities of a problematic file will fall on the photographer.

JR

As far as the DSLR's have come they still don't seem to be able to make a file like a phase back when the light is all good. It's such a pity because I hate shooting MF, it's so heavy and slow. Maybe I'll get an A850 to try it again, my last experience with a dslr is with the 1ds mark 2 which was pretty much mush.
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AlexM

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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2009, 01:46:02 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
If the anti-Aliasing filter spreads the light over the adjacent 8 pixels, this explains why a 2 Mpx (HD 1028i) TV screen looks as high-res as a 16 Mpx photo taken on a DSLR with an AA filter.

Do you want to pay for 60 Mpx and end up with as much res as you could get with 8?

well, maybe you are right, and it actually destroys micro contrast, I wouldn't want that to happen. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to compare the same image from the same MF camera with and without an AA filter.

If the difference is like shown here: http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d200hr.htm
I'd better continue fighting moire

PS. OTOH it seem that only photographers care about microcontrast. I've never heard a client say, you have bad or good microcontrast, but they spot the moire easily
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 03:24:04 pm by Oleksiy »
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