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Author Topic: Frustated P25+ Moire Problems  (Read 18391 times)

Kristian Tjong

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« on: August 27, 2009, 10:01:53 am »

Just want to get some opinions. During the launching party of the new PhaseOne body, I was faced with a choice to buy either P30+ or P25+ along with the PhaseOne body. After some long consultation, I chose the P25+ based on the advise of the PhaseOne distributor in my country. At that time, I was shooting more still life shoot as compared to people. Now, more and more, my work involving family portrait, portraiture, children and such. The problem that I am having is I noticed that are a lot of my shoot exhibit moire on the peoples clothing. I tried cleaning it using the moire function in Capture One, and the result is not satisfying. Sometimes, I can not get rid of the moire at all. If I am not mistaken, I've read from this forum, it has something to do with large sensor with not enough megapixels which caused the moire. What should I do?
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Doug Peterson

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 10:34:55 am »

Quote from: Kristian Tjong
Just want to get some opinions. During the launching party of the new PhaseOne body, I was faced with a choice to buy either P30+ or P25+ along with the PhaseOne body. After some long consultation, I chose the P25+ based on the advise of the PhaseOne distributor in my country. At that time, I was shooting more still life shoot as compared to people. Now, more and more, my work involving family portrait, portraiture, children and such. The problem that I am having is I noticed that are a lot of my shoot exhibit moire on the peoples clothing. I tried cleaning it using the moire function in Capture One, and the result is not satisfying. Sometimes, I can not get rid of the moire at all. If I am not mistaken, I've read from this forum, it has something to do with large sensor with not enough megapixels which caused the moire. What should I do?

The size of the pixel on the chip is the major factor here.
P25+: 9 micron
P30+/P45+: 6.8 micron
P65+/P40+: 6 micron

EVERY system in the world (including your eye) can moire. However, dSLRs use an AA filter which softens every image captured in order to avoid occasional moire. Backs with smaller pixels are significantly less prone to moire. A P30 CAN moire, but its much less likely; a P40 even less still.

Here are a few varied suggestions:
- Shoot tethered and use Capture One 4's floating "Viewer" at 100% on a 2nd monitor to get a quick idea if there is any moire
- When you see a "o crap" outfit switch to a Canon/Nikon with an AA filter. Either one can fit into your existing Capture One workflow
- Shoot either wider open, or more stopped down than usual. Moire will occur most at the middle apertures where DOF is high and sharpness is maxed. Wider open there is less DOF and therefore less fabric in focus and therefore less chance of moire - as well nearly every lens is a bit soft wide open. Stopped down diffraction kicks in and has an effect very similar to an AA filter.

The P25+ is simply not the right tool for family portraits. The P30+ or P40+ will very rarely moire and will give you faster shot-to-shot times for more spontaneity. Of course you already have the P25+ and I'm sure you didn't know where life would take you, so I sympathize with your frustration. Hope some of the above helps.

Doug Peterson
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Kristian Tjong

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 10:55:04 am »

Thanks for the reply Doug. I am really frustrated at the moment as I felt being lied to. I spend a great deal amount of money in investing into the Phase system only to find out it has this problem. Before I purchased the Phase system, I consulted with the distributor extensively. I mentioned that I will be shooting people too. They did not mentioned to me about this problem before. Should I know that P25+ is prone to the moire problem, I would have opted for the P30+ (it was offered at the same price at the moment). I will try to contact distributor again to resolve this problem. Thanks for your help.
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Doug Peterson

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 11:21:53 am »

Quote from: Kristian Tjong
Thanks for the reply Doug. I am really frustrated at the moment as I felt being lied to. I spend a great deal amount of money in investing into the Phase system only to find out it has this problem. Before I purchased the Phase system, I consulted with the distributor extensively. I mentioned that I will be shooting people too. They did not mentioned to me about this problem before. Should I know that P25+ is prone to the moire problem, I would have opted for the P30+ (it was offered at the same price at the moment). I will try to contact distributor again to resolve this problem. Thanks for your help.

I doubt (hope) that this was a lie.

The P25+ is an absolutely fantastic back for many many applications. It is a better back for many applications than the P30+ (technical cameras for instance). Many people who shoot people along with a variety of other things would do very well with a P25+.

If, however, you're now primarily shooting portraits in the studio with no control over the clothing used (it's not your place to tell them what to wear, nor should you need to be distracted by this issue) it is not the best tool.

Let your distributor know the situation and hopefully they will make you a good deal to get you a tool that works better for your new needs.

Doug Peterson
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« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 11:22:03 am by dougpetersonci »
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archivue

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 11:31:09 am »

but the P30+ isn't friendly with camera movements... no perfect back, just compromises !

i have an Aptus 22 myself, and wasn't very satisfied with his behaviour in low light... while in "normal" condition, i find it very good !
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 11:48:14 am »

Quote from: archivue
but the P30+ isn't friendly with camera movements... no perfect back, just compromises !

i have an Aptus 22 myself, and wasn't very satisfied with his behaviour in low light... while in "normal" condition, i find it very good !

P65+ :-)

Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)

No problem with camera movements.

Very fast.

Full frame.

No compromises comes at a cost :-)

Snook

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2009, 01:23:22 pm »

One of the only things I have hated since day one with MFDB's is the moire problem.
Sure the images are sharper but the HUGE pattern moire is a PITA and the pattern is impossible to get rid of. You can get rid of the color but the pattern is impossible.
Never had one moire problem with my Canons and spend endless hours retouching moire since my I got my Phase one back.
Where I live they use a lot of cheap fabrics for clothing and I have moire problems on every shoot. So guys will say oh change your focal length but that is BS. Becasue when your shooting portrait or fashion you cannot go back and shoot it again at different focal length. The shot is the shot and if you miss it no going back once you have capture and image.

Really is one of the biggest dis-appointments with MFDB's for sure if you shoot catalogue and fashion.  

Snook
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TMARK

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2009, 01:32:42 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
P65+ :-)

Very little moire. (though every camera CAN moire)

No problem with camera movements.

Very fast.

Full frame.

No compromises comes at a cost :-)

What I find odd is that the P25 seems to have more issues with Moire than the Dalsa chipped 22 mpix backs, such as the Aptus 22/54s and the Sinar eMotion 22.  Also, the "special" Kodak chipped Sinar 54M didn't have many moire issues. Could it be a software issue?  What happens when the OP uses ACR or LR to process?  Raw Developer?



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TMARK

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 01:38:21 pm »

Quote from: Snook
One of the only things I have hated since day one with MFDB's is the moire problem.
Sure the images are sharper but the HUGE pattern moire is a PITA and the pattern is impossible to get rid of. You can get rid of the color but the pattern is impossible.
Never had one moire problem with my Canons and spend endless hours retouching moire since my I got my Phase one back.
Where I live they use a lot of cheap fabrics for clothing and I have moire problems on every shoot. So guys will say oh change your focal length but that is BS. Becasue when your shooting portrait or fashion you cannot go back and shoot it again at different focal length. The shot is the shot and if you miss it no going back once you have capture and image.

Really is one of the biggest dis-appointments with MFDB's for sure if you shoot catalogue and fashion.  

Snook

This is one of my issues with MFDB in general.  If you have to always have a tech checking for moire, focus, etc on every catalogue shoot of thousands of images, you have to slow way, way down, breaking the rhythm of the shoot and frankly extending the day.  With a dslr, you AF, you shoot, you move on, no moire and most of the time perfect focus through acurate AF and depth of field.
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HarperPhotos

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 04:02:30 pm »

Hello Kristian,

I have also suffered with this problem with my Leaf Aptus 75.

The best solution I have found is to use Caprock Antimoire filters.

They can reduces the problem dramatically to the point of disappearing. The only negative is that you have to add a bit more sharpening.

http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm

I don't go anywhere without these filters in my computer case. The minute I see colour moiré out they come.

Personally I think these filters should be supplied free with every new digital back.

Regards

Simon
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 04:23:19 pm by HarperPhotos »
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Simon Harper
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amsp

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 04:48:11 pm »

I've never had that much trouble myself, sure it would show up occasionally on fine pattern fabric but I always was able to remove it rather easily. I remember this one time doing a catalog for a textile company, I shot ~480 pics and out of those there was just one I wasn't happy with, but to be fair the textile print on that one looked like moire by itself so I'm not surprised the software got confused.  

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Snook

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 07:08:15 pm »

Quote from: amsp
I've never had that much trouble myself, sure it would show up occasionally on fine pattern fabric but I always was able to remove it rather easily. I remember this one time doing a catalog for a textile company, I shot ~480 pics and out of those there was just one I wasn't happy with, but to be fair the textile print on that one looked like moire by itself so I'm not surprised the software got confused.  

I guess your not shooting many models with clothing. Funny I am retouching some Lingerie images right now as we speak and every freak'n one has Moire in every type of fabric. Plus There is basically NO way of getting rid of the Pattern Moire... I have gone in and Dodged and Burned the heck out of the pattern which takes HOURS.
Other wise I have never seen any thing get rid of the pattern Moire.. going to post some examples later of what I am working on right now...
MFDB's are a has been for sure,except for the very few feilds that need it badly enough... I am keeping mine just for fine art stuff and Big Prints, and the fact that the prices have gone down so much it is not worth it to even sell it in my opinion...
I am on a P30 myself and the Moire is Horrible and it is found on many types of fabrics, not just fine woven fabric's...
Don't believe the hype. I shoot 3-4 times a week all year round usually, been slower lately and 80% of my of my shot's with any clothing have Moire!! Period.

Snook


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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 07:42:46 pm »

Hi Snook,

That why I bought a Nikon D3X.

Also just finish a 3 day location shot with the Nikon in very low light situations and shot over 2000 frames and it never skipped a beat.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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Kristian Tjong

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 08:24:26 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
I doubt (hope) that this was a lie.

The P25+ is an absolutely fantastic back for many many applications. It is a better back for many applications than the P30+ (technical cameras for instance). Many people who shoot people along with a variety of other things would do very well with a P25+.

If, however, you're now primarily shooting portraits in the studio with no control over the clothing used (it's not your place to tell them what to wear, nor should you need to be distracted by this issue) it is not the best tool.

Let your distributor know the situation and hopefully they will make you a good deal to get you a tool that works better for your new needs.

Doug Peterson
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Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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I was quite emotional when I wrote the letter. My apology. I've never had this type of problem when I use the 35mm camera. I felt like being an a$$ because (as if) the distributor knew about this problem and still sell the back me (I could have gotten the P30+ instead). I am not someone with a  lot of money, I bought this camera system with great expectation (great amount of money too even compared to the top of the line offering from Nikon or Canon). Another note, when I talked to the rep about this problem, he suggested me to learn better lighting technique to avoid this moire problem   . I felt utterly hopeless to do a business with them again.
 
@Simon, thanks for the info. Will definitely check it out.
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Snook

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 08:36:12 pm »

Quote from: Kristian Tjong
I was quite emotional when I wrote the letter. My apology. I've never had this type of problem when I use the 35mm camera. I felt like being an a$$ because (as if) the distributor knew about this problem and still sell the back me (I could have gotten the P30+ instead). I am not someone with a  lot of money, I bought this camera system with great expectation (great amount of money too even compared to the top of the line offering from Nikon or Canon). Another note, when I talked to the rep about this problem, he suggested me to learn better lighting technique to avoid this moire problem   . I felt utterly hopeless to do a business with them again.
 
@Simon, thanks for the info. Will definitely check it out.

Well if they were telling you lighting has to do with moire they definitely pulled one over on you and they should be shot and you should have done more research first.
I guess dealers will say anything (or not say anything) these days to try and sell those backs sitting on the shelves.
I would imagine sells have diminished almost completely, specially with the "Crisis". Clients are paying what they used to, many things are web only these days, no new bodies or lens' worth beans, etc etc..
It's just a no brainer I guess.

Snook

PS. Doug has ALWAYS been MORE than helpful and has never sold me anything.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 08:38:26 pm by Snook »
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Rick_Allen

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Frustated P25+ Moire Problems
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 08:59:44 pm »

Hey Simon Does that filter really work? Would love to see some samples. Which numbers do you have?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:01:35 pm by Rick_Allen »
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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 09:28:00 pm »

Hi Rick,

Here some samples taken with the Caprock filters. These shots were taken with my Mamiya RZ and a Leaf Aptus 75 back.

There is no sharping to the images.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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michaelnotar

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« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2009, 12:15:32 am »

Quote from: HarperPhotos
Hi Rick,

Here some samples taken with the Caprock filters. These shots were taken with my Mamiya RZ and a Leaf Aptus 75 back.

There is no sharping to the images.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Simon

Simon, thanks for the samples. very helpful. i too have a P25 and see the moire. its a great back but not for portraits.

so are the filters of optical grade? do you just start with a lower number filter and use a higher number one by trial and error.

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Rick_Allen

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« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2009, 12:21:52 am »

Thanks Simon. Do you find you use 5.6 the most?
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Rick Allen
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HarperPhotos

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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2009, 12:50:47 am »

Hi Rick,

Yes the Caprock filter 5.6 is the one I use the most.

I actually got a optical lens maker to cut one of the large square Lee style filters down to fit in a 77mm filter ring, so it could screw into my Mamiya RZ lenses.

The square filters also fit perfectly in a Lee lens hood.

Cheers

Simon
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