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Author Topic: Physics and camera limits  (Read 3855 times)

keith_cooper

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Physics and camera limits
« on: August 18, 2009, 06:35:47 am »

FYI I've just put up the revised version of David Goldstein's paper on 'Physical limits in camera design'

It's an extended, revised version of one he wrote a while ago.

A warning - it's over 12k words long, but you can just read the abstract and conclusions. There is a PDF version for more leisurely study :-)

Hope it helps answer (& ask) a few questions...

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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 08:00:29 am »

Keith, thanks for making this available. I shall read with interest.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 09:40:52 am »

Quote from: keith_cooper
FYI I've just put up the revised version of David Goldstein's paper on 'Physical limits in camera design'

It's an extended, revised version of one he wrote a while ago.

A warning - it's over 12k words long, but you can just read the abstract and conclusions. There is a PDF version for more leisurely study :-)

Hope it helps answer (& ask) a few questions...
Perhaps we should run a competition to see who can find most errors and omissions in this article?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:23:27 am by Dick Roadnight »
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Mark D Segal

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 09:58:58 am »

To start with your own errors perhaps "an" should be "and".

More substantively, if a serious contributor takes the trouble to bring this material (on which the author worked diligently, to be sure) to our attention, perhaps we should approach reading and discussion in a more positive and constructive manner.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 10:36:56 am »

Quote from: MarkDS
To start with your own errors perhaps "an" should be "and".

More substantively, if a serious contributor takes the trouble to bring this material (on which the author worked diligently, to be sure) to our attention, perhaps we should approach reading and discussion in a more positive and constructive manner.

Mark
Thank you... but I was not writing a "Scientific Paper", and did not proof-read my post.

Perhaps, if the author had worked diligently, there would not have been so many errors?

My cousin was a research professor at the age of 24, and he told me that the art (or science) of writing scientific papers was to write it so that no one could understand it or criticize it.

Surely it is constructive to bring errors to the author's attention... so the next revision could be even better?
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keith_cooper

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 10:47:46 am »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Surely it is constructive to bring errors to the author's attention... so the next revision could be even better?
Thanks Dick - why not do just that? :-)

I'm sure David would welcome your comments - please do feel free to follow the link at the bottom of the article, where it links to a blog post where you can comment. If you read the PDF then there is even a direct comment address.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 11:09:30 am »


Thanks for the link Keith, well worth a reading. Just looking at the conclusions I agree with the following sentence, contrary to the general belief that smaller sensor cameras are more diffraction limited in terms of DOF:

2. Depth of field
Depth of field at a given f-stop is inversely proportional to image size. In the past, photographers got around that by using smaller apertures for large cameras: a setting of f/64 on an 8 by 10 inch camera produced the same depth of field as f/8 on a 35 mm camera, but allowed greater resolution. But with higher sensor resolution for 35mm digital cameras, both cameras are at the diffraction limit measured in angular terms. Therefore there is no real advantage to the large format.


I would also like to thank you for the info you provide in your site, I found the tests and explanations about TS lenses very valuable.

Regards.

Dick Roadnight

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 12:48:23 pm »

Quote from: keith_cooper
Thanks Dick - why not do just that? :-)

I'm sure David would welcome your comments - please do feel free to follow the link at the bottom of the article, where it links to a blog post where you can comment. If you read the PDF then there is even a direct comment address.
I have not read the document from end to end, but I have e-mailed him a marked-up copy.

If anyone wants information about the science of Diffraction, it is explained in Harold Merklinger's books.

Dick
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:33:40 pm by Dick Roadnight »
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Mark D Segal

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 01:18:51 pm »

Quote from: Dick Roadnight
Thank you... but I was not writing a "Scientific Paper", and did not proof-read my post.


Surely it is constructive to bring errors to the author's attention... so the next revision could be even better?

Of course. But you know that's not the issue I was commenting on, and, in fact, I would be interested to see your critique of the paper.

Mark
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papa v2.0

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2009, 08:16:27 am »

Hi Keith, have been reading the pdf. its a bit of a slog, but worth the read. Although I came across this paragraph on page 19.


'We start out by assuming highly colored incident light. Color is a complex issue, because it is
not the same thing as wavelength of light. All pure wavelengths are a mix of at least two
primary colors, and all but three particular wavelengths are a mix of all three.'

mmm not sure what he means by this!  needs to revisit his colour science.




there is a good set of tutorials covering some of the same topics on

cambridge colour

It has nice diagrams which helps the reader understand the topic.



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keith_cooper

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2009, 10:51:21 am »

Hi

A typo, not a misunderstanding - thanks for mentioning it.

I'll pass this on to David - it is connected with the representation of colours, not that single wavelengths -are- a mix (since obviously they are not if pure)

Keith
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Justinr

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2009, 01:56:45 pm »

From the paper-

It appears possible, at least in theory, to overcome at least some of the factor-of-3 loss due to
color filtration by finding a way to detect color without filters. Current sensor technology
detects photons through allowing them to penetrate into a silicon semiconductor and transfer
their energy into exciting electrons into the conduction band.8 The mean depth for absorption is
a function of photon energy, which is inversely proportional to wavelength. Light at the blue
end of the spectrum has a mean absorption depth an order of magnitude shorter than light at the
red end. Thus one could imagine a sensor that measures the depth at which photons were
absorbed rather than just the fact of absorption. Photon absorption is a statistical process, so
this method, even if feasible to implement in practice, might not provide sufficient
discrimination between colors to be practical.


But isn't that how the Sigma Foveon sensor works?

Two things that could be a help with understanding more of the article are explanations of how a digital camera adjusts for sensitivity and why noise is a statistical issue.

Otherwise it's well worth trying to grasp although he states that film and digital have the same dynamic range, I thought film was two to three stops better.

Justin.
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Gary Ferguson

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Physics and camera limits
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 11:17:45 am »

Way beyond my technical competence, but thanks for posting such a fascinating read! Tends to corroborate what so many are seeing and reporting in practise,

1. Practically achievable IQ benefits from each new digital generation are getting smaller and smaller.
2. The perennial hurdles of photography, such as camera shake or focusing limitations, are increasingly the major drivers of IQ.
3. Cranking up the ISO setting crushes the darker tones.
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