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Author Topic: Practical Use / Diffraction Questions  (Read 13100 times)

EricWHiss

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Practical Use / Diffraction Questions
« on: August 03, 2009, 08:38:52 pm »

Hi,
This is kind of a tech question that I hope won't be out of place here.   I understand diffraction in theory, but it seems that few lenses are truly 'diffraction limited'.   What I'm wondering is if there are some principles of lens design or set of principles that make one kind of lens able to get closer to the theoretical limits than another. Another way to word this is were you shopping for a very good macro lens how could you evaluate its potential by looking at its design?

For example does physical aperture design affect this? Number of blades, thickness and shape?
If the light is diffracted by the blades, then won't virtual distance from aperture to film plane make a difference?
How about the number of glass elements  rear of the aperture?
I'm guessing magnification factor or format size makes a difference?

What are the best  MF macro lenses?  


Thanks,
Eric

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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 09:03:25 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Hi,
This is kind of a tech question that I hope won't be out of place here.   I understand diffraction in theory, but it seems that few lenses are truly 'diffraction limited'.   What I'm wondering is if there are some principles of lens design or set of principles that make one kind of lens able to get closer to the theoretical limits than another. Another way to word this is were you shopping for a very good macro lens how could you evaluate its potential by looking at its design?

For example does physical aperture design affect this? Number of blades, thickness and shape?
If the light is diffracted by the blades, then won't virtual distance from aperture to film plane make a difference?
How about the number of glass elements  rear of the aperture?
I'm guessing magnification factor or format size makes a difference?

What are the best  MF macro lenses?  


Thanks,
Eric


Eric:

In my experience, one factor to consider is that some lenses are more optimized for larger apertures than smaller and vice versa. Here is an interesting test by Doug Peterson showing capture quality at f8 - f22 with the Phase One 120mm and the Hasselblad HC 120mm.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/


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bradleygibson

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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 10:48:56 pm »

Hi, Eric,

I am not a qualified lens designer by any stretch--I only know enough about it to know that I really don't know enough about it.  

With that said, my understanding is that, (as I'm sure you already know) an optic is diffraction limited when it is so highly corrected that all resolution-lowering abberations have been suppressed to a threshhold so low that diffraction itself is the limiting factor for lens resolution.  

Unfortunately I do not know enough about lens design to be able to say what to look for in a lens design that brings this about.

By reputation, the Zeiss Makro Planar 120mm for Contax is the last word in medium format Macro,  surpassing even the Hasselblad version.  I know you have some experience in this area with Schneider's 90 and 150mm offerings for Rollei...  If we are able to meet up at the end of this month and I have found a reasonably priced Zeiss 120 for Hassy, I'd be happy to do some side-by-side comparison shots with you.  It doesn't directly answer your original question, but it may still be informative...

Sorry I don't have a better answer!

Best,
Brad
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 10:52:44 pm by bradleygibson »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 12:46:37 am »

Quote from: bradleygibson
Hi, Eric,

I am not a qualified lens designer by any stretch--I only know enough about it to know that I really don't know enough about it.  

With that said, my understanding is that, (as I'm sure you already know) an optic is diffraction limited when it is so highly corrected that all resolution-lowering abberations have been suppressed to a threshhold so low that diffraction itself is the limiting factor for lens resolution.  

Unfortunately I do not know enough about lens design to be able to say what to look for in a lens design that brings this about.

By reputation, the Zeiss Makro Planar 120mm for Contax is the last word in medium format Macro,  surpassing even the Hasselblad version.  I know you have some experience in this area with Schneider's 90 and 150mm offerings for Rollei...  If we are able to meet up at the end of this month and I have found a reasonably priced Zeiss 120 for Hassy, I'd be happy to do some side-by-side comparison shots with you.  It doesn't directly answer your original question, but it may still be informative...

Sorry I don't have a better answer!

Best,
Brad

Brad,
Thanks for your reply.  When I was really into Leica R glass I was reading all the time about how the MTF curves on the 90 apo summicron and 100 apo macro show how you can see the subtle effects of diffraction in the 5lp curves just from stopping down from f/2 to f/5.6 (like 97% drop to 94%)  - so that paints the top line picture of a perfect lens and maybe that's all there is too it,  but still from experience it does seem like a lot of lenses just hold up better as they are stopped down but I can't put my finger on why.  

There's probably design trade offs like not being able to exactly fit the aperture blades in the sweet spot for all focus settings or something like that.  My gut is telling me that the shorter lenses fare better - but I have no data to really back that up. Now that I'm curious, I'll have to test this I sometime.


I'll be curious to see your 203FE and the 120 if you have found one by then.  I've got the Rollei/zeiss 120mm PQ macro planar - not sure if its the same formula or not.


Regards,
Eric








« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:15:46 am by EricWHiss »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 01:32:45 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Eric:

In my experience, one factor to consider is that some lenses are more optimized for larger apertures than smaller and vice versa. Here is an interesting test by Doug Peterson showing capture quality at f8 - f22 with the Phase One 120mm and the Hasselblad HC 120mm.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/


Steve Hendrix
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Steve,
Thanks for the link....  Took a quick look and the phase/mamiya 120 looks a touch better at f/16 than the HC 120.    Can you give us any insight into how a lens is optimized for larger or smaller apertures?  And might I say good choice of test subjects.  
Eric

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etrump

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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2009, 01:34:08 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Eric:

In my experience, one factor to consider is that some lenses are more optimized for larger apertures than smaller and vice versa. Here is an interesting test by Doug Peterson showing capture quality at f8 - f22 with the Phase One 120mm and the Hasselblad HC 120mm.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/


Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager
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I'm not sure Doug's test has as much to do with diffraction optimization as it demonstrates that the P1 120mm D he tested is slightly sharper than the Hassy HC 120mm he tested (visible at most apertures).   Let's face it, ANY macro lens is going to be optimized to the hilt for smaller apertures and close focus distances.

I'm not interested in getting into the Hassy/Phamiya lens debate because I don't use Hasselblad equipment.  The only test that matters is the test you run on your own lens or the one you are about to purchase.  You have to know your systems capabilities to make the most appropriate decisions during operation.  

Doug's test is a great example of of lens testing, much better than shooting resolution charts IMO.   You could test two of the same brand of macro lens and more often than not, one will be a little sharper than the other.  The difference can almost completely be eliminated by post processing to the point you would be hard pressed to tell the difference in print.  

You wouldn't purchase an MF system because of marginal differences in sharpness of the macro lens or any other lens.  There is not enough difference to make that the deciding factor.  The presence or absence of capabilities, features or equipment that are important to your type of photography are more significant factors.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:34:46 am by etrump »
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 08:24:27 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Hi,

What are the best  MF macro lenses?  

Thanks,
Eric
The Schneider Apo Digitar Macro (120) allows movements and (with a Sinar P2) plenty of extension, but I think it is a "view camera only" lens.
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 10:14:10 am »

Quote from: etrump
I'm not sure Doug's test has as much to do with diffraction optimization as it demonstrates that the P1 120mm D he tested is slightly sharper than the Hassy HC 120mm he tested (visible at most apertures).   Let's face it, ANY macro lens is going to be optimized to the hilt for smaller apertures and close focus distances.


Yes, except I've seen lens comparisons - even a P1 lens and an HC lens - where one lens appeared sharper wide open, but the other appeared sharper stopped down. This to me indicated that there was a preference and/or an optimization of the character of the lens with respect to apertures that was taken into account during production. I'm not technical enough to explain how this is done. Only that it appeared that way to me and so one lens couldn't be considered sharper in general - it depended on which aperture was used and how that lens was produced to respond to that aperture.

As a result, comparing lenses should possibly be done through testing variable apertures, unless one only shoots at one or two apertures settings.


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yaya

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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 11:51:43 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
What are the best  MF macro lenses?  
Thanks,
Eric

Assuming that 1st priority is resolving power then the best lens in my experience is the Schneider 90mm on the Rollei. In numerous tests with different samples and comparing to other MF lenses as well as the Shcneider 80mm and 120mm Digitars it resolved more. Setups in those tests were typical "archiving" ones where resolution is important.
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 12:28:42 pm »

Quote from: yaya
Assuming that 1st priority is resolving power then the best lens in my experience is the Schneider 90mm on the Rollei. In numerous tests with different samples and comparing to other MF lenses as well as the Shcneider 80mm and 120mm Digitars it resolved more. Setups in those tests were typical "archiving" ones where resolution is important.
What reproduction ratio are you talking about here?
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01af

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 01:47:36 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
I understand diffraction in theory, but it seems that few lenses are truly 'diffraction-limited'.
Actually, all lenses are diffraction-limited (well, with the possible exception of toy lenses such as The Lensbaby). The question is, at which aperture does the limitation set in? Cheap lenses are diffraction-limited only at small apertures such as f/11 or f/16 and beyond. Good lenses are diffraction-limited from, say, f/5.6 on. And only the finest lenses are diffraction-limited from, say, f/2.8 on. For industrial purposes, there are lenses which are diffraction-limited at f/0.7 ... but they cannot be used for photography. You wouldn't be able to afford them anyway  


Quote from: EricWHiss
What I'm wondering is if there are some principles of lens design or set of principles that make one kind of lens able to get closer to the theoretical limits than another.
Yes, sure: quality. In other words: lack of lens aberrations. Being diffraction-limited means: having residual spheric and chromatic aberrations so small that diffraction affects resolution more than anything else.


Quote from: EricWHiss
Another way to word this is were you shopping for a very good macro lens how could you evaluate its potential by looking at its design?
Not at all. Unless you're a seasoned lens designer, there's no way to evaluate potential lens quality from just looking at the design. Furthermore, there are more factors affecting lens quality besides design---precision of manufacture and strictness of quality control, in particular. For end users, it's better to look at the price tag. Excellent lenses are never cheap.


Quote from: EricWHiss
For example does physical aperture design affect this? Number of blades, thickness and shape?
No.


Quote from: EricWHiss
If the light is diffracted by the blades, then won't virtual distance from aperture to film plane make a difference?
Yes---but that distance is strictly determined by focal length and focus distance ... no degree of freedom here.


Quote from: EricWHiss
How about the number of glass elements rear of the aperture?
No.


Quote from: EricWHiss
I'm guessing magnification factor or format size makes a difference?
Yes, indeed. The absolute amount of diffraction is the same for all formats, but the (relative) effect on resolution is the inverse proportion of the linear image size. Larger format, less blur through diffraction. That's why you can stop down a view camera's lens more than the lens on an APS-C-format camera and still get away with no visible diffraction blur.

Magnification also affects the effect of diffraction. Higher magnification, more blur through diffraction. That's why it is so difficult to find a good compromise for depth-of-field and sharpness at really high magnifications way beyond 1:1.


Quote from: EricWHiss
... but still from experience it does seem like a lot of lenses just hold up better as they are stopped down but I can't put my finger on why.
One thing is for sure: there is no way to overcome the effects of diffraction. Diffraction is the same for all lenses. There is no way for a good lens to resolve more line pairs per millimeter at, say, f/16 than another good lens at the same aperture and the same magnification on the same camera. Still there's room to be different---after all, there's more to image quality than just resolution: there may be different micro contrast, different field curvature, different distortion, different colour rendition, different bokeh. In particular, less contrast at the same resolution will yield less acutance, i. e. less visual sharpness.

-- Olaf


EDIT: Err ... wait a minute. I just said, "There is no way for a good lens to resolve more line pairs per millimeter at, say, f/16 than another good lens at the same aperture and the same magnification on the same camera." That's not perfectly true. Pupil magnification does make a difference ... not near infinity but at close focus distance, i. e. at large reproduction ratio. Larger pupil magnification means less diffraction. However it also means less depth-of-field, and when stopping down for the same depth-of-field then diffraction will be the same again.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:02:28 pm by 01af »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 06:54:39 pm »

Olaf,
Thanks for the very informative reply!   So for macro work then, will I notice diffraction effects less with shorter lenses like the 28mm componon or 12mm leica photar?

Yaya,
Thanks for your reply.  I do have the Rollei Schneider 90mm apo macro, as well as the 150mm apo macro.   I'd agree with you the 90mm PQS is an amazing lens both at high magnification such as my test shot of a dusty old butterfly wing (attached as a jpeg at 50%) and it does equally well at infinity.    It makes a great all around lens.   I have tested it side to side with the schneider makro-symmar 80mm lens and it is indeed sharper depending on focus distance and other factors such as aperture (which I didn't fully test).  The Rollei 90mm lens also is very flare resistant and has no problem shooting straight into strong backlit scenes.  This is an area where it really shines compared to the 120mm zeiss macro PQ lens that I also have for my Rollei.  

btw - I used the Rollei 90mm extensively for my graphite hands series at f/22.    There was a little bit of degradation between f/16 and f/22 but it wasn't all that bad.  I wish I had saved my tests so I could show them here.

 
Eric
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 08:00:56 pm by EricWHiss »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 07:47:07 pm »

Thank you, Olaf, for the comprehensive reply!

One question I had for you was around the virtual or effective distance of the aperture blades from the film plane not being a factor in the amount of diffraction.  I'd assumed there was an approximately proportional relationship between focal length and the effective aperture distance, and since the aperture represents the source of the diffraction, I thought the size of the Airy disk would vary in proportion with the effective aperture distance or, equivalently, according to my assumption, in proportion to focal length.

Can you help me to understand what I am missing?

Thanks,
Brad
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 07:50:40 pm by bradleygibson »
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AlexM

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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 10:56:56 pm »

Quote from: bradleygibson
I'd assumed there was an approximately proportional relationship between focal length and the effective aperture distance, and since the aperture represents the source of the diffraction, I thought the size of the Airy disk would vary in proportion with the effective aperture distance or, equivalently, according to my assumption, in proportion to focal length.

That's what I think, too. Ideally, the further the aperture from the sensor the more the spread of the light caused by diffraction.
But there are lenses between the aperture ring and the sensor, and they might affect the diffraction linearity for different lens designs.

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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 01:24:25 am »

Quote from: etrump
You wouldn't purchase an MF system because of marginal differences in sharpness of the macro lens or any other lens.  There is not enough difference to make that the deciding factor.  The presence or absence of capabilities, features or equipment that are important to your type of photography are more significant factors.



I agree for the most part on what you say for most applications.  But being the pro forum with many specialties in image making.... it IS the type of photography you do that makes the first sentence you write invalid.  When working in such precise variables, your glass is your eye. The optimal foundation is key in the final image. Period.  Having an understanding that there are people in such fields requiring the utmost in quality makes the question valid. Guidence to the determined is always better than a detour.
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01af

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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 04:35:37 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
So for macro work then, will I notice diffraction effects less with shorter lenses like the 28 mm Componon or 12 mm Leica Photar?
No. At the same magnification (and same aperture and same image format) you'll get the same loss of sharpness through diffraction. Actually, since shorter lenses typically yield higher magnifications in photomacrography, you'll get more loss of sharpness through diffraction in the end.


Quote from: bradleygibson
One question I had for you was around the virtual or effective distance of the aperture blades from the film plane not being a factor in the amount of diffraction.  I'd assumed there was an approximately proportional relationship between focal length and the effective aperture distance ...
Yes, there is indeed ... with emphasis on 'approximately.' The focal length is determined by the position of the rear principal plane, and the physical aperture can be located at that plane or before it or behind it, depending on the lens design. Still, this doesn't affect diffraction because for a given relative aperture (also known as 'f-stop'), the physical diameter of the aperture is wider when it's located before the principal plane or narrower when it's behind it. This cancels out the effect of the distance being longer or shorter. So at the same relative aperture, diffraction is always the same, no matter how the lens is designed. Ummm ... at infinity focus.

As I said before, at high magnification, the aperture's physical size does not cancel out the effect of the aperture's position. Here, the wider absolute aperture (= greater pupil magnification) indeed does reduce diffraction because the physical aperture's diameter and distance aren't proportional anymore. However it also reduces depth-of-field so it's no useful advantage in real life. With a lens with a smaller pupil magnification, you'd get exactly the same effect on depth-of-field and diffraction by just opening up the aperture accordingly.

-- Olaf
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ixpressraf

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Practical Use / Diffraction Questions
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 04:57:26 am »

IMHO, when shooting still life, differences to be achieved by using a multishotback are much bigger then those between all brands of macro lenses for MF camera bodys. i do all studio work with a 384 MS back and sometimes a 528c and once you are used to do multishot, you never get used again to the fuzzy images captured in one shot modus. This also goes for 39 and 50Mp.
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Dustbak

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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 10:04:31 am »

Agreed. Why bother nitpicking about diffraction when you are satisfied with the fuzzy pictures that are being created by single shot backs  Much more to be gained in that area, going from single shot to multishot.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 10:06:31 am by Dustbak »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 12:58:52 pm »

Quote from: ixpressraf
IMHO, when shooting still life, differences to be achieved by using a multishotback are much bigger then those between all brands of macro lenses for MF camera bodys. i do all studio work with a 384 MS back and sometimes a 528c and once you are used to do multishot, you never get used again to the fuzzy images captured in one shot modus. This also goes for 39 and 50Mp.

Hi Raf,

Well the biggest reason for my posting the question is that I shoot mostly situations where multi-shot isn't possible - though for my gallery art reproduction that would be of benefit.  But if you want to look at maximum usable DOF and therefore smallest usable aperture, multishot isn't really helping is it?   Anyhow, I tried already many times to buy an ixpress multishot back with no luck!  I've given up that idea and offered my ixpress to Rollei 6008 AF adapter for sale.
Eric

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ixpressraf

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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 01:53:19 pm »

Wel, i still have one for sale: with hasselblad H mount or Rolleimount for 4999 euro.
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