Digital back and a view camera

[marcmccalmont]

I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc

[Doug Peterson]

I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc

The vast majority of our landscape shooters who try a technical camera end up switching.

We'd be happy to help with your evaluation with a free in-person demonstration in Atlanta/Miami or a discounted (and credited-towards purchase) rental anywhere in the US.

Perhaps you might also find this report from Don Libby (Iron Creek Photography) who made this switch (P30+ AFD to a P45+ tech camera): http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/...a-users-report/

Focus for landscape is generally accomplished by finding your exact hyperfocal point in advance (e.g. 3 meters) and using that focus point the majority of the time.

The final-print edge-to-edge sharpness of the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses is absolutely outstanding. The wide-angle SLR glass from Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Canon, Nikon simply cannot compare.

My absolute favorite lens is the Schneider 47mm XL Digitar because of the angle-of-view it produces (my personal aesthetic) and the room it allows for in-the-image-circle-stitching, but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[marcmccalmont]

The vast majority of our landscape shooters who try a technical camera end up switching.

We'd be happy to help with your evaluation with a free in-person demonstration in Atlanta/Miami or a discounted (and credited-towards purchase) rental anywhere in the US.

Perhaps you might also find this report from Don Libby (Iron Creek Photography) who made this switch (P30+ AFD to a P45+ tech camera): http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/...a-users-report/

Focus for landscape is generally accomplished by finding your exact hyperfocal point in advance (e.g. 3 meters) and using that focus point the majority of the time.

The final-print edge-to-edge sharpness of the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses is absolutely outstanding. The wide-angle SLR glass from Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Canon, Nikon simply cannot compare.

My absolute favorite lens is the Schneider 47mm XL Digitar because of the angle-of-view it produces (my personal aesthetic) and the room it allows for in-the-image-circle-stitching, but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

I'll PM you
Marc

[JeffKohn]

but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.

Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

[Christopher]

Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

With the P65 it would be lack of sharpness and detail compared to a lens like the Rodenstock 40HR-W.

small edit: I certainly don't say the 47 is bad. I would just say that with very high res back the Xl series comes to a limit.

[Martin Kristiansen]

I use a Cambo view camera with my Leaf Aptus7. lenses are the 47mm 90mm and 180mm Schneider Apo Digitar lenses.

Focus is achieved, as it always was on view cameras, via the groundglass. I use a sliding back and simply close down the lens and move the back into the position occupied by the groundglass when focusing and composing. Stitching is very simple and back movements are used as that allows the lens to remain stationary giving a perfect stitch as the viewpoint of the lens does not change. With architecture I find front movements more useful and with landscape I mostly use back movements. There are many ways to do things using view cameras so others may differ in this approach to movements.

The camera and tripod weigh about 20KG (44lb) and I carry it all in a Lowepro backpack. I am 48 and no mountain man but find the camera no problem even over hikes of several hours.

The Schneider lenses are superb, I am sure other manufacturers also make good lenses. The deciding factor for me with the view camera is not the image quality, which is excellent, but the flexibility of the system using movements allowing stitching, control of focus and shapes of objects imaged. The calm thoughtful way of shooting that is promoted using view cameras also appeals to me.

[marcmccalmont]

I use a Cambo view camera with my Leaf Aptus7. lenses are the 47mm 90mm and 180mm Schneider Apo Digitar lenses.

Focus is achieved, as it always was on view cameras, via the groundglass. I use a sliding back and simply close down the lens and move the back into the position occupied by the groundglass when focusing and composing. Stitching is very simple and back movements are used as that allows the lens to remain stationary giving a perfect stitch as the viewpoint of the lens does not change. With architecture I find front movements more useful and with landscape I mostly use back movements. There are many ways to do things using view cameras so others may differ in this approach to movements.

The camera and tripod weigh about 20KG (44lb) and I carry it all in a Lowepro backpack. I am 48 and no mountain man but find the camera no problem even over hikes of several hours.

The Schneider lenses are superb, I am sure other manufacturers also make good lenses. The deciding factor for me with the view camera is not the image quality, which is excellent, but the flexibility of the system using movements allowing stitching, control of focus and shapes of objects imaged. The calm thoughtful way of shooting that is promoted using view cameras also appeals to me.

Which camera (4x5?) and which sliding back do you use?
Marc

[Doug Peterson]

With the P65 it would be lack of sharpness and detail compared to a lens like the Rodenstock 40HR-W.

small edit: I certainly don't say the 47 is bad. I would just say that with very high res back the Xl series comes to a limit.

Truly this is a comparison between an A and an A+; they are both great great lenses by nearly any standard.

The subtlety of English can be hard sometimes
"There are few weak points" vs.
"There are A few weak point"

I meant to say that there are NO poor XL or HR lenses. There are (by definition) some which are slightly better, but any lens in the XL or HR series will be on par with or better than the best lenses of any platform.

As a point of reference on what I mean: the Rodenstock 23mm HR is considered by many to be better than the Schneider 24mm XL lens (larger image circle, no need for Center Filter). It is also three times (or so) the cost. None of this means the 24mm XL a poor lens. The Schneider 24mm XL is a great great lens.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

[Dick Roadnight]

I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc

Yes as others have said, the digital specialist lenses will make a big difference, and you will get a further improvement if you shift and stitch. (You can also stitch with a sliding stitching back.)

With shift-and stitch you will get a considerable improvement over pan and stitch, as you do not loose pixels through cropping, and (mostly for shots containing architecture, not including cylindrical pans) you do not loose sharpness by distorting (but some people on this forum might try to persuade you otherwise.)

The normal way to focus with a digital view camera is with live video - do not make the mistake I made buy buying a Hasselblad, for which they have not implemented live view!

Sliding backs (if you can get one that works and focusses correctly) are an alternative, saving the weight of a laptop.

For landscape and nature photography the main advantages of a view camera are through the movements:

Back movements give you perspective control, and front movements allow you to position the plane of sharpest focus, e.g. to enable you to get the foreground in focus in landscapes... this allows you to use a wider aperture to reduce diffraction, and a faster shutter speed for moving objects like people, cars, waves, water, trees in the wind etc.

Buying a view camera is not worth the hassle and expense if you do not make good use of the movements... see Harold Merklinger's "Focusing the View Camera"

[tho_mas]

Sliding backs (if you can get one that works and focusses correctly) are an alternative, saving the weight of a laptop.

too, there are solutions with groundglass but no sliding back. you have to remove the groundglass first and replace it with the digiback after composition/focussing.

Back movements give you perspective control, and front movements allow you to position the plane of sharpest focus, e.g. to enable you to get the foreground in focus in landscapes

depends on the camera. E.g. the arTec or the Cambo WRS or the Alpas use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back. For stitching multiple images (more than 2) shift movements on the back and tilt/swing on the lens are better. In any case for use with a digital back a flat rear standard is more accurate.

you do not loose sharpness by distorting (but some people on this forum might try to persuade you otherwise.)

hmh, but you should add that you lose sharpness due to sharpness fall off of the lens with large movements (depending on the lens and the image circle).

[ThierryH]

tho_mas,

The front/lens plane does not modify the perspective, only the rear/image plane.

Best regards,
Thierry

... the arTec or the Cambo WRS or the Alpas use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back.

[tho_mas]

The front/lens plane does not modify the perspective, only the rear/image plane.

so you shift vertical (rise/fall) with the back? I thought vertical shift is on the front panel and lateral shift is on the rear panel.
So my remembrance seems to be bad :-)

[Dick Roadnight]

...use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back. For stitching multiple images (more than 2) shift movements on the back and tilt/swing on the lens are better. In any case for use with a digital back a flat rear standard is more accurate.

If your lens is any where near any part of your subject (for "normal" shift-and-stitch) moving the lens will give you double or multiple images.

you lose sharpness due to sharpness fall off of the lens with large movements (depending on the lens and the image circle).

Yes... this could be a major problem in something like a wedding group shot, where you need edge to edge sharpness, so that you can produce a good portrait of any of the 50? wedding guests from the one picture... and 2 * 2 does not always equal 4, as you lose a bit through overlap, but you lose a great deal less than you would through pan-and-stitch (e.g. if there is a building in the background).

At many weddings there is someone of whom the wedding photographs will be the last photos ever taken of them in their smart clothes.

[Dick Roadnight]

so you shift vertical (rise/fall) with the back? I thought vertical shift is on the front panel and lateral shift is on the rear panel.
So my remembrance seems to be bad :-)

If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.

With "proper" full-blown view cameras you get all movements with front and rear standards.

Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.

You can use back tilt forwards (or whole camera or rail point down) to falsify perspective, and make a hill look steeper than it is, given enough image circle.

[marcmccalmont]

If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.

With "proper" full-blown view cameras you get all movements with front and rear standards.

Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.

You can use back tilt forwards (or whole camera or rail point down) to falsify perspective, and make a hill look steeper than it is, given enough image circle.

Dick
What view camera would you recommend?
Marc

[tho_mas]

If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.

yes, that's what I said above.

Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.

that's what I'd call perspective control: leveling the camera and composing with back and/or lens shift. apparently a language barrier, sorry

[Dick Roadnight]

Dick
What view camera would you recommend?
Marc

I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.

I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.

The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.

I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...

The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.

Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.

How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?

If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.

What maximum extension will you need?

Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)

Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?

It is now bedtime in the UK.

[tho_mas]

I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...
Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available

Assuming that the fit of the back will remain Mamiya mount the Sinar arTec unfortunately is not an option. I'd recommend something portable and handy.

Alpa12Max http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...;detailpage=267
rise/fall on the front; lateral shift on the back; there's an adapter so you switch all shift movements on the rear.
No bulit in Tilt/Swing. There's an adapter for Tilt/Swing but limited in use regarding focal lenghts (can't be used wide lenses but I don't know the limit)
no sliding back (AFAIK) (but groundglass)

Cambo WRS http://www.cambo.com/ (products -> Wide RS)
all movements on the rear
no built in Tilt/Swing but you can order lenses in a lenspanel with Tilt/Shift (the T/S adaoter can be used with all Rodenstock HR from 28mm up and all Schneider Digitars from 47mm up)
no sliding back (but groundglass)

Cambo WDS http://www.cambo.com/ (products -> Wide DS)
basically similar to the Alpa Max

Arca Swiss Rm3d:
Built in Tilt/Swing
Sliding back optional
Michael's recent report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...arca-rm3d.shtml

Horseman SW-D-II pro http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html
No built in Tilt/Swing
all movements on the rear
no sliding back

And too there are Silvestri and Gottschalt (anyone else?)...
http://www.silvestricamera.com/
http://gottschalt.de/

All cameras can be used with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses.
I think you'll find contributions about all these cameras here on the forum.

edit: ah, yes...: the Linhof Techno: http://linhof.de/news-1_e.html

[marcmccalmont]

I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.

I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.

The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.

I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...

The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.

Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.

How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?

If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.

What maximum extension will you need?

Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)

Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?

It is now bedtime in the UK.

Good morning Dick
I am hesitant to purchase a camera without front tilt and swing like the Cambo wide or the horseman I also don't want to get locked into one manufacturers lenses. So if there was a smaller lighter technical camera with front tilt/swing I would be happy. Perhaps the Cambo wide with the tilt swing lens adapter.?I find I don't care for shooting wide angle lenses to get a wide field of view but prefer stitched panoramas with a normal lens. I've had best luck with the camera in portrait orientation. The wide angle shots make things look so distant that I don't feel like I'm involved in the scene?!?!
Marc

[edwinb]

I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.

I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.

The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.

I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...

The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.

Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.

How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?

If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.

What maximum extension will you need?

Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)

Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?

It is now bedtime in the UK.

The Sinar F2 (4x5) or F3 (100mm) are the best full movement cameras for landscape/architecture because they are lighter than the P equivants at the expense of a full set of microprecision adjustments. the can use the same lens/bellows/film+digital back systems as the 'P' series
The Sinar arTec is the newest development that is highly compact with built in precision side by side stitching and a tilt/rotate system with fine adjustments. the lens must have arTec mounts-it has a range of film/cameraback fittings
The Sinar M   has 2 distict operation modes
1) as an electronic shutter for the p2/p3 systems in a studio
2) as a tripod mounted camera - you can also use a range of hasselblad/nikon lenses with it in this mode.
Edwin