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Author Topic: 8x10/MFDB Comparison  (Read 70268 times)

KevinA

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2010, 09:50:04 am »

Quote from: aaron
Do you guys shooting sheet film, particularily 8x10 worry about its availability in the future?

With Fuji announcing an end to quickload etc.. the trend continues to see a reduction in large formats future.

I think a lot of photographers consider trying or returning to large format must be put off by this trend. For anyone who is new to LF it seems a risk to invest the time and money (but more time!) to master a medium which seems to be in decline.

I think if photographers were more confident of LF having a furure then more would give it a go. This is surely the reason why some big Fine Art names have moved to MFD.

Setting the money bit aside, if you were considering taking up either LF or MFD the learning curve with MFD is certainly easier, the instant nature of it allows you to learn fast. With LF on the other hand it can take a long time to get your techniques down.

But still, if 8x10 sheet film had a guaranteed future, i think it trend would be one of growth.

Any opinions?

If you shoot B&W I don't think it will be a problem, neither do I think colour will completely vanish anytime soon.  Ilford make film in all kinds of sizes including ULF.If you think it is going to go away in the near future now is the time to give it a go.

Kevin.
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pixjohn

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2010, 12:23:33 pm »

When electricity was developed I am sure the candle makers said, where in trouble I still buy candles  

I can still buy new vinyl records.

When color film came out everyone probably said BW is dead. Wow I can still buy BW film.

When dvd's came out everyone said, laser disc will die, ok I guess they did die.

I shoot mf digital because of the volume of shoots not the quality.

Quote from: aaron
Setting the money bit aside, if you were considering taking up either LF or MFD the learning curve with MFD is certainly easier, the instant nature of it allows you to learn fast. With LF on the other hand it can take a long time to get your techniques down.

But still, if 8x10 sheet film had a guaranteed future, i think it trend would be one of growth.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 12:24:49 pm by pixjohn »
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Mark_Tuttle

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2010, 07:37:30 pm »

Quote from: DanielStone
hear ya there . Listening to some of my dad's beatles records right now as I type this!

Ouch, that hurt   Oh well, I picked up the Verve Remixed and the City Lounge series from my son.

I am shooting 8x10 for people and MFDB for everything else.  For me using an 8x10 solves the necessity for ritual process; there is magic in the air and everyone involved seems intent on capturing it on the film.  It's not just the look sometimes, it's the gravity.

Mark


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Chris Livsey

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2010, 05:42:35 pm »

Quote from: jsch
Make your own glass negatives:

Best,
Johannes

Or even just buy them:
"HARMAN has a coating machine specifically designed for coating on glass plates, and produces specialist plates for scientific uses - nuclear plates for particle physics, and Q-plates for mass spectrography.  We also have the capability of producing photographic glass plate equivalents of some of our film products, though these are not
routinely available."

http://www.harmantechnology.com/dotnetnuke...42/Default.aspx
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aaron

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2010, 06:45:50 am »

I like te glass plates Johannes but its a bit more 'retro' than i had in mind  might be tricky to wroap one around the drum scanner... but i like the idea of those 'nuclear plates' from Harmon  

I think the future of sheet film lies with smaller players like Ilford.

How are you guys outputting the 8x10 film, contacts or scanning?

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bjanes

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2010, 08:46:53 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
The best 8x10 lens will generate maybe 30 LP/mm at the corners -- if you're lucky -- and closer to 50 in the center.  Even tranny film like Astia can resolve 90 line pairs, so it is doubtful film will be your limiting factor with 8x10, your lenses will be.  (4x5 is a different story -- LOT's of 4x5 lenses will do over 60 line pairs.)

Anyway, carrying on the math: 30 line pairs per mm is roughly equivalent to 760 per inch, and generating 760 pairs of lines per inch requires 1520 dots per inch.  So, assuming you scan an 8x10 sheet at anything over 1520 DPI, you are probably at the maximum for the media.  8x10 at 1520 DPI equal roughly 12,000 x 15,000 pixels or 180 MP.  Of course this is a theoretical limit, and in practice so much goes against you in generating a perfect 8x10 capture -- wind, vibrations, motion, lack of perfect focus, inability of film to be held perfectly flat, etc, etc, etc -- that I would say it's safe to assume more like 1/2 to 2/3rds that in the normal best case, so I'd call it 120 MP practical effective digital comparable in the best case, and maybe more like 90 MP in the average case.  Either way, it is clear that 8x10 will rule the ultimate resolution roost for at least a few more years.
The above discussion assumes that sampling at 2 samples per cycle will get all the information according to the Nyquist theorem. As Roger Clark points out, that assumes that the sampling is in phase with the signal, which usually is not the case in a real world situation. To avoid aliasing and capture all the detail requires sampling at 2-3x Nyquist as Roger demonstrates in Figure 1 of his paper.

Furthermore, your discussion does not take MTF into account. Digital sensors have excellent MTF at low frequencies, but MTF falls off dramatically towards Nyquist. Above Nyquist, aliasing is present with digital sampling and false detail is recorded. With film, MTF falls off gradually and some contrast is present at very high frequencies, and aliasing is not present with film. Stating that a lens resolves 30 lp/mm without stating the contrast at that resoluiton is incomplete. Is that at 50% MTF, the Rayleigh limit, or the Dawes limit? The values are quite different. Roger concludes, "The conclusion is 2 to 3 pixels per cycle at the Dawes limit records close to all the detail in the image, but 2 pixels per cycle at the Rayleigh limit is pretty close." Would you care to revise your analysis?
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MarkIV

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2010, 12:27:12 pm »

Quote from: harlemshooter
But has anyone compared 8x10 film (of course with a top Schneider lens, or like) to MFDB?  I'd like to see a large print comparison between the P65 by Phase One (or like) with an 8x10.  For artists who must print 40x50 inches, or larger, this kind of study would be most illuminating.

Does such a study exist?

This is all really theory until comparing prints (I'd put 8x10 maybe up around 300 MP or more).  

If you go to Rodney Lough Jr's new gallery in the city center, on the strip, in Las Vegas there is an entire gallery of these comparisons.  All images are huge.  All except one (a 4x5 image) are either 8x10 or the P65 stitched.  I have my opinions, but go in, spend an hour scrutinizing the detail in each, then you will know.  I'm impressed the the P65 when multi stitched.  Rodney (who is a top printer in the world today) seems to think that 8x10 still has a significant advantage (based on my talk with him) over the P65 even when stitching 5 or so shots.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 12:31:41 pm by MarkIV »
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pcunite

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« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2010, 09:18:50 pm »

Quote from: MarkIV
This is all really theory until comparing prints (I'd put 8x10 maybe up around 300 MP or more).

I have heard it was about 180 MP.
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pixjohn

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« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2010, 02:30:50 am »

His  8x10 shots blow away the PhaseOne shots, hands down.

Quote from: MarkIV
This is all really theory until comparing prints (I'd put 8x10 maybe up around 300 MP or more).  

If you go to Rodney Lough Jr's new gallery in the city center, on the strip, in Las Vegas there is an entire gallery of these comparisons.  All images are huge.  All except one (a 4x5 image) are either 8x10 or the P65 stitched.  I have my opinions, but go in, spend an hour scrutinizing the detail in each, then you will know.  I'm impressed the the P65 when multi stitched.  Rodney (who is a top printer in the world today) seems to think that 8x10 still has a significant advantage (based on my talk with him) over the P65 even when stitching 5 or so shots.
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Gigi

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2010, 07:13:22 am »

This is a wonderful thread, full of comparisons and deep theoretical knowledge. Awesome.

.02 from another perspective: years ago someone came up with a rule of thumb for film enlargement - that 10X was an approximate upper limit to maintain a smooth tonality in the film:print process. That's not absolute, but it seemed to make sense. That means 35 mm ix limited to about 8x10 (maybe a bit larger), MF to 22" square, 4x5 to 40" min, etc. Again, this is not an absolute rule, but it seems to be confirmed by viewing: that something happens in a film print when it gets larger than this - some of the "tonalities" are lost, or at least worked harder, and some richness seems to fall to the side. Of course, anything less than the 10X (say 5X) is really sweet.

For digital, this is harder. There is probably some way to interpolate from MB to print size, but there are so many variables, including printer quality, sharpening algorithms, and even which generation sensor was used that affect this. All this is apart from MB.  I suspect we each develop a sweet spot for our own equipment and work flow.

In film, I used to like printing MF film, scanned, to 16" square - fit the paper, fit the printer, file size would be reasonable, and the images very taut. Changing to a full digital process affects all aspects of that workflow. And thus most of us probably have to find a new rationale for what works best. I'd offer the suggestion that its not any one criteria, but rather all of them put together, assembled intuitively, and after trial and error, the photographer (artist) finds the best combination for his/her needs. This varies by subject matter, marketplace, weight of the gear, what gear is in the closet, etc.

In short, there are a lot of variables in this mix.

Geoff
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Geoff

MarkIV

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2010, 04:23:54 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn
His  8x10 shots blow away the PhaseOne shots, hands down.

OK, maybe I am seriously contradicting myself here, but I just went back to the gallery and spent a whole bunch of time looking very carefully at all the prints (8x10 VS P65 stitched).

Now my feedback is this:

The image he first showed me (P65 stitch) might have been the worst one to compare to the 8x10.

Many of the P65 stitched prints are impeccable in detail (at about 6 foot)!

I did not realize how many of the images were P65 stitches (a lot of them).

So, now I'm kind of swaying back to the idea of innovating with the MF back with stitching.  By the end of the year I should complete my own tests (both LF film and MF stitches) and I think that will answer it, at least for myself.

Lastly, in about 4-5 weeks I should be doing another SW shoot and am planning on using the Leica S2 (37.5MP) with a lot of stitching.  My shoot will be about a week and I am going to attempt to do 200-300+ mega pixel stitches.  Once I get the prints done (April/May) I should be able to add more useful feedback to the issue.  I might even bring in my work to show Rodney and see what he thinks about the detail.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 04:42:18 pm by MarkIV »
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CBarrett

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2010, 04:51:00 pm »

So, if I'm following all the threads here correctly.... dslr is about as good as MFDB and uh, MFDB is about as good as 8x10.

So...  DSLR is about as good as 8x10.

Huh, I never would of drawn that conclusion without the Luminous Landscape.


(Fully Implied Snarkiness)

-CB
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ixpressraf

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2010, 04:57:09 pm »

And it gets even better: a compact such as a Canon G11 is to many people as good as a P45+. This means it is also as good as 16"by20" and must be capable off taking better deep space images than the Hubble.......... It is a wonderfull life here on the Luminous Landscape.  
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aaron

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« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2010, 03:02:49 pm »

Quote from: CBarrett
So, if I'm following all the threads here correctly.... dslr is about as good as MFDB and uh, MFDB is about as good as 8x10.

So...  DSLR is about as good as 8x10.

Huh, I never would of drawn that conclusion without the Luminous Landscape.


(Fully Implied Snarkiness)

-CB

Huh? I read the thread and drew the opposite conclusion which was that 8x10 will murder any mfdb, no surprises there.  
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Professional

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2010, 06:18:50 pm »

I want to end up with a large format, because of LL i went with MF, and because of LL and GD i want to move to LF [8x10], this is all your fault here.
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tho_mas

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« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2010, 06:24:53 pm »

Quote from: CBarrett
So, if I'm following all the threads here correctly.... dslr is about as good as MFDB and uh, MFDB is about as good as 8x10.

So...  DSLR is about as good as 8x10.
so even a G10 is as good ;-)
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

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harlemshooter

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2010, 01:49:04 am »

...that is, if you don't murder yourself first (and everything else goes absolutely perfectly) after spending 40+ hours spotting dust in PS after obtaining a drum scan.

Quote from: aaron
Huh? I read the thread and drew the opposite conclusion which was that 8x10 will murder any mfdb, no surprises there.  
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DanielStone

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2010, 11:05:02 am »

Quote from: harlemshooter
...that is, if you don't murder yourself first (and everything else goes absolutely perfectly) after spending 40+ hours spotting dust in PS after obtaining a drum scan.


Harlem,

are you scanning yourself, or having a lab do them? That's a LOT of spotting?!

my longest time spend cloning dust on 4x5 and 8x10 I've had scanned here in LA was like 2hrs max(and I'm pretty slow). wow....

-Dan
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Murray Fredericks

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2010, 05:21:58 pm »

Quote from: DanielStone
my longest time spend cloning dust on 4x5 and 8x10 I've had scanned here in LA was like 2hrs max(and I'm pretty slow). wow....

-Dan

8" x 10" sheets scanned to 1.6gig were taking my retoucher 2 full days to clean up spots, dust and scratches. The scans were oil mounted...

The shots were produced in very salty dusty envirnoments...


Cheers

Murray
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DanielStone

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« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2010, 06:02:44 pm »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
8" x 10" sheets scanned to 1.6gig were taking my retoucher 2 full days to clean up spots, dust and scratches. The scans were oil mounted...

The shots were produced in very salty dusty envirnoments...


Cheers

Murray


were you loading your film in a changing bag/tent in the field just out of curiosity? still, that's a good bit of post time. I've only shot in the desert once, and I can vouch what you state about sand getting *everywhere*, I had to change socks and undies twice that day


were you shooting chromes or negs for your salt series? I've only recently started shooting 8x10, its like looking at a small TV screen ! I think that I'll stick with  4x5 chromes(E100G, Provia/velvia when I run out of Kodak) and negs(efke 25, TMX 100, portra 160nc)

all scan really nicely, the b/w is processed in pyro, so it has a nice long tonal scale. and the pyro helps to reduce apparent grain in the scans too!

-Dan
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