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Author Topic: 8x10/MFDB Comparison  (Read 70316 times)

deardorff8x10

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« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2009, 10:14:29 am »

I think that part of the difference (at least between small and large film, but probably applies to sensors) is an effect of micro-contrast.  Part of this is lens resolution, but part is grain/noise and an ability of film to differentiate between small local contrast points, like specular reflections on a dark leaf.  As the contrasted areas become smaller, the grain would tend to obscure the definition.  On film, there is also an issue of infectious development that can reduce micro contrast and detail.  Larger film reduces this problem.  There is some debate, but developers like Pyro can create edge effects that increase perceived sharpness and micro-contrast.  Being more linear than film, I would think that digital would show this mico-contrast differently, and have a different look than film with its curve.  However, with curves applied, digital should look similar in theory.  On the other hand, some digital systems have issues with very high micro contrast and can have weird edge effects that don't happen with film.  

I have a 16M hassy back and find that it is great for smooth gradations, especially out of focus areas due to being pretty "grainless" (pixelless?), but is not as resolving as LF.  I would love to try a very hi-res back.

On a different point, while I have no scientific basis for this, I always find that prints from 8x10 can look sort of hyper-real, since they seem to me to present more resolving power than the human eye (e.g. a life size portrait where you see every skin pore or vein in the eye), while 4x5 doesn't seem to do this for me.  i have not yet seen prints from high megapixel backs to see if this effect still is there.
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brianc1959

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« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2009, 01:05:21 pm »

Quote from: Ben Rubinstein
I specifically explained what I meant by tonality. It has nothing whatsoever to do with film grain. The more imaging area dedicated to any specific part of the image, the more defrentiation between tones and colours can be accomplished. A cloudless featureless sky has only one tone (ish) and as such is irrelevant. Take an image with transitions between dark and light and transitions in colour, one with a larger imaging area than the other and the larger imaging area will have smoother, more pleasing and more accurate transitions between the tones as well as showing transitions that will just not exist in the image from the smaller imaging area. Note that I haven't mentioned grain or resolution once.

I did have test shots demonstrating this in the past between a 5D shot and a 5D stitched on the back of a 'Camera Fusion' adaptor to make a 200 megapixel file. Yes the jump in resolution was large, but the tonality difference was breathtaking. Same camera - just using more imaging area for each part of the image. Instead of using 20 pixels square to describe the transition between light and dark in a given area of the image - using 6 MEGAPIXELS worth of a FF chip. Abrupt tonality is not the fault of grain blotchiness, it's due to not having enough pixels or film area to accurately describe the transition between areas of light and dark or the subtle differences in the transition between colours.

I do not know how this translates to incredible pixel counts such as on the P65+ which is why I asked my original question, how does the tonality compare?

Just a note for people, I've never used or played seriously with the file of a MFDB. I have shot T55 (I kinda stuck with one film) and used the Camera Fusion adaptor on 4x5 as well as my current stitching work shown in the link in my sig. I'm not comparing 35mm to 4X5 in any way other than to give an exaggerated example of differences in tonality based on imaging area.

OK, so you're saying that very low spatial frequencies - such as the very slowly varying tone of clear blue sky - are irrelevant when thinking about tonality.  I completely disagree.  This slowly varying tone - and the ability of the capture medium to faithfully record it - is an excellent measure of tonality.  An image of the sky is not just a single tone - it should be a very smooth gradation of tone.  If you are thinking that a higher spatial frequency is needed to define tonality, then what is that spatial frequency?
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2009, 03:08:52 pm »

I'm not going to argue the physics because I have zero background in the field.

I only know what I've seen and that is with digital vs digital (heck same camera) through stitching. At iso 100 there is zero noise but the tonality is as different as it was with 35mm vs 4X5 film. Sorry I can't help any further, I just don't know enough to argue this using the correct terms and math. I only know what I've seen for myself.
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harlemshooter

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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2009, 03:19:36 pm »

excellent points, anders.


Quote from: Anders_HK
Uhg. Is it that most posters are stuck in the MP, technology of latest rave, and what they sell??? Indeed there is more ;



As some of you likely recall I compared Mamiya ZD raw files to drum scans of Velvia 50 from Mamiya 7 some time back http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....&pid=153583

On that merit, and now instead using a 28MP Leaf back, and of being new to 4x5 with Velvia 50, I can simply state that I am overwhelmed by the appearance of large format film. To my humble eyes (which are sensitive) the resolution of 28MP Leaf back compared to 4x5 Velvia appears to make my digital back a tad like a shack compared to a skysraper... Not only that, Fuji Quickloads are cheap in comparison.

Yet, there is more to the difference, the rendering of digital vs. film is very different. It sure makes me wonder many times why I as an amateur have a $$$ digital back in my possession, and not stuck and shot more with film...



The constant comparing of dslr vs mfdb, and now in posts here even dslr compared to 8x10 is tad pathetic. Photography is a loads of more than just pixels and gear. Murray Fredricks posted above, and I looked up his website. Indeed very, very impressive photos with a Leaf Digital Back. Same time my observation is that those photos demonstrate one use for landscape at which a digital back can excel. As for the traditional type of landscape photography, e.g. such as by Jack Dykinga I am not at all convinced that a digital back prevails, actually in situations of capturing strong light in golden hours I feel rather convinced that slide film provide a much superior rendering. Digital and film are two complete different medias with complete differing renderings. One need to consider if digital is actually correct for ones use. Personally, I remain being struck by landscapes photos made with large format and medium format film more than I am by digital. Simply the rendering of light and colors of Velvia 50 is amazing. Also, very few know how to delicately adjust and process landscape photos to very high quality levels, as compared to what is done for portraits. Frankly speaking, indeed to reach very high quality levels for digital landscape photography it takes alot more than a dslr and CS4/Lightroom. Gear wise a quality digital back such as Leaf or P1 is superior to dslr, yet more so, with ditgital  so much of the of rendering is placed into hands of the photographer, and frankly speaking most common is that the adjusted renderings do not have the naturally looking enhancements of the landscapes as film does. I believe painted art can teach us some.

Further, I wish to also express that discussion of digital back or dslr replacing film is tad pathetic, since that places all focus on digital technology and pixel peeping. Film and digital are simply different tools. As for what MP equals film, that argument has been going on for years...
For 3.1MP being claimed equal to 35mm Provia 100 - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...s/d30/d30.shtml
For 6MP being claimed equal to slight less than 6x7 slide film - http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5003
Indeed the whole business wish us to believe that digital is superior (they wish to SELL)... is digital superior for landscape photography really, for I assume that is what 8x10 is used for? I suggest an experiment: take a look at books of landscape photography, is there any with digital that even come near the ones which were made to the top notch level using slide film? I have found none. My latest addition is "Transient Light: A Photographic Guide to Capturing the Medium" by Ian Cameron. Flipping throw it the images indeed are impressive. They were all shot with Pentax 6x7 SLR and Fuji Velvia 50, apparent scanned on a Nikon 120 film scanner...

Above stated, my Aptus 65 digital back is stellar and one I am very pleased with. The downside is lots of weight due to the Mamiya 645 system, and that it does not replace film or vice versa. Film days was much simpler and lighter weight.

Above my humble view to share.

Anders
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harlemshooter

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« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2009, 04:10:15 pm »

In the past ~5 months since my original post I have used my Canham 4x5 and Ebony 8x10 alongside my Phase One P45+ (and often a friend's P65+) for various personal art projects.  My work is not landscape (so my observations will differ from Murray's), rather more akin to staged/posed scenes involving models (and still life) in controlled natural and artificial light.

Color and BW negs, as well as slides, are Howtek 7500 scanned and printed via Inkjet to 40x50 or larger.  I develop the BW myself and ship out color film to a not-so-local lab.  Phase One files are printed with the same Epson.

No question, prints from the P65+ and p45+ are stunning in terms of sharpness/detail, particularly when the longer lenses were used.  Some have involved extensive stitching and/or blending, others not.  I won't go into my major issues with color rendition and the general artificial/digitized look I perceive.  I've spend hundreds and hundreds of hours attempting unsuccessfully to get the "feel" of films like Portra.  I have finally resigned myself to this vain pursuit to emulate film and now am OK with the digital "look" for certain projects.

Prints from LF, when everything goes right, are truly in a class of their own.  I am uncertain whether digital technology will ever be able to reproduce the creamy, difficult to define/quantify lively look of sheet film for certain applications.  There is something magical how light interacts with silver halide.  Film satisfies my aesthetic preferences.

Digital certainly has it's own look.  Perhaps in the future after I have become accustomed to it I will embrace it.  If I were a commercial photographer, maybe I would use digital 90% of the time due to it's efficiency.  It is time consuming, and often incredibly testing, to work with sheet film.  On the other hand, I like how it slows down my already hectic enough life.  

There is no definitive answer, as we all know.  It comes down to the look you, and you alone, want.  I have certainly learned a great deal by using both formats.  Cheers to all.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:15:49 pm by harlemshooter »
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2009, 02:28:58 am »

Hi,

Not that I disagree, some points...

To some extent, micro contrast you are talking about is MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) it simply measures how much of the contrast is kept for for detail of different size. MTF is decreasing as detail size diminishes. MTF is also limited by diffraction which is a law of physics, so lens designers cannot do anything about it.

Now:

Feature size (which is measured in lp/mm) is depending on film/sensor size. So larger sensors/film has larger feature size. The fall of on MTF with decreasing detail size is different between lenses. In general lenses designed for smaller formats are better designs, they need to be to get the best from the small format.

Very good lenses can be made for large formats, but costs can be astronomical (think about "Hubble Space Telescope").

We can say that increasing the film/sensor format we will increase feature size, thus edge contrast would increase with format would all being equal. Now, things are not equal. Lenses for small formats like Hasselblad and Schneider digital lenses are extremely sharp, having perhaps an advantage of two regarding MTF at say 40 lp/mm over larger format lenses. This explains, in part, while it seems that MFDBs are said to match 4x5".

MTF at medium frequencies can be enhanced by sharpening. Certain developers achieve something called the "adjacency effect boost" which also acts as sharpening. Adjacency effect boost essentially depends on depletion of the developer, causing diffusion of developer from the less exposed areas to the more exposed areas. This effect is dependent on developer and development techniques. This is very similar to sharpening, and affects low and medium frequencies. Edge contrast is enhanced but resolution is not affected.

A good explanation is here: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF1A.html

Digital image processing involves a lot of sharpening. Every stage of the image process does have an MTF.

1) Lens
2) Film/developer
3) Enlarging lens
4) Photographic paper

In the digital world they would be:

1) Lens
2) Sensor
3) Printer

With digital we always apply sharpening between each step, which mean that we can regain a great deal of MTF. This may also help MFDBs to match 4x5".

An issue with film is grain and noise. Even if we scan film we cannot enhance sharpness as much as with digital, because we would also enhance grain. Good sharpening technique can enhance sharpness without increasing grain to much, "Real World Image Sharpening by Bruce Frazer and Jeff Schewe" contains a wealth of information on this.

One issue that comes to mind is that 135 and MF lenses are normally very well corrected. Highly corrected lenses often have a less than optimal "bokeh", some authors talk about overcorrecting spherical aberration can cause bad bookeh. As large format lenses are normally not very highly corrected they may tend to a better bookeh. Also the sharpening applied to digital images may make the edges harder.

One issue of grain is that it can actually improve impression of sharpness:

1) Gives the eye something to focus on
2) Can mask minor unsharpness

A final factor that may come into effect is that MFDBs don't have a OLP (optical low pass filter). The lack of OLP will result in some false detail, which can be perceived as extra sharpness. It's a guess that "digital photographers" like the effect of sharpening and the effects caused by the lack of aliasing filter while analogue photographers appreciate a different sort of imaging, with possibly higher resolution but less edge contrast.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: deardorff8x10
I think that part of the difference (at least between small and large film, but probably applies to sensors) is an effect of micro-contrast.  Part of this is lens resolution, but part is grain/noise and an ability of film to differentiate between small local contrast points, like specular reflections on a dark leaf.  As the contrasted areas become smaller, the grain would tend to obscure the definition.  On film, there is also an issue of infectious development that can reduce micro contrast and detail.  Larger film reduces this problem.  There is some debate, but developers like Pyro can create edge effects that increase perceived sharpness and micro-contrast.  Being more linear than film, I would think that digital would show this mico-contrast differently, and have a different look than film with its curve.  However, with curves applied, digital should look similar in theory.  On the other hand, some digital systems have issues with very high micro contrast and can have weird edge effects that don't happen with film.  

I have a 16M hassy back and find that it is great for smooth gradations, especially out of focus areas due to being pretty "grainless" (pixelless?), but is not as resolving as LF.  I would love to try a very hi-res back.

On a different point, while I have no scientific basis for this, I always find that prints from 8x10 can look sort of hyper-real, since they seem to me to present more resolving power than the human eye (e.g. a life size portrait where you see every skin pore or vein in the eye), while 4x5 doesn't seem to do this for me.  i have not yet seen prints from high megapixel backs to see if this effect still is there.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:26:14 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2009, 10:40:51 am »

Erik,

Just scanning through your post... and ending grabbing two issues that you touch on and that are simply not correct;

1. MF lenses versus large format. My Schneider 72XL appear to beat all my Mamiya 645 lenses except perhaps my Mamiya 28mm! I am not sure which of those two is sharpest. Withe the 72XL my Aptus was mounted on my Burmease teak Shen-Hao 4x5. Even my Rodenstock 150 Sironar-N appear to equally outdo most my Mamiya lenses... It goes to show that what LF companies claims of that we need digital LF lenses is not necessarily true! Lets att that the 72XL has a 229mm image circle...

2. Sharpening. A digital back simply do NOT need the sharpening that a file from a dslr. Yes, the lack of AA but also a different type and a very quality sensor on a MFDB, in particular the Dalsa sensors.

Apart from these, I think I already made my points in post above, focus on MP and analyzing it leads to nowhere. There is difference between rendering from dslr, mfdb and film. Take a look at landscape photo books as I suggested... any with digital images to beat those of Jack Dykinga?

Rgds


Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

Not that I disagree, some points...

To some extent, micro contrast you are talking about is MTF (Modulation Transfer Function) it simply measures how much of the contrast is kept for for detail of different size. MTF is decreasing as detail size diminishes. MTF is also limited by diffraction which is a law of physics, so lens designers cannot do anything about it.

Now:

Feature size (which is measured in lp/mm) is depending on film/sensor size. So larger sensors/film has larger feature size. The fall of on MTF with decreasing detail size is different between lenses. In general lenses designed for smaller formats are better designs, they need to be to get the best from the small format.

Very good lenses can be made for large formats, but costs can be astronomical (think about "Hubble Space Telescope").

We can say that increasing the film/sensor format we will increase feature size, thus edge contrast would increase with format would all being equal. Now, things are not equal. Lenses for small formats like Hasselblad and Schneider digital lenses are extremely sharp, having perhaps an advantage of two regarding MTF at say 40 lp/mm over larger format lenses. This explains, in part, while it seems that MFDBs are said to match 4x5".

MTF at medium frequencies can be enhanced by sharpening. Certain developers achieve something called the "adjacency effect boost" which also acts as sharpening. Adjacency effect boost essentially depends on depletion of the developer, causing diffusion of developer from the less exposed areas to the more exposed areas. This effect is dependent on developer and development techniques. This is very similar to sharpening, and affects low and medium frequencies. Edge contrast is enhanced but resolution is not affected.

A good explanation is here: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF1A.html

Digital image processing involves a lot of sharpening. Every stage of the image process does have an MTF.

1) Lens
2) Film/developer
3) Enlarging lens
4) Photographic paper

In the digital world they would be:

1) Lens
2) Sensor
3) Printer

With digital we always apply sharpening between each step, which mean that we can regain a great deal of MTF. This may also help MFDBs to match 4x5".

An issue with film is grain and noise. Even if we scan film we cannot enhance sharpness as much as with digital, because we would also enhance grain. Good sharpening technique can enhance sharpness without increasing grain to much, "Real World Image Sharpening by Bruce Frazer and Jeff Schewe" contains a wealth of information on this.

One issue that comes to mind is that 135 and MF lenses are normally very well corrected. Highly corrected lenses often have a less than optimal "bokeh", some authors talk about overcorrecting spherical aberration can cause bad bookeh. As large format lenses are normally not very highly corrected they may tend to a better bookeh. Also the sharpening applied to digital images may make the edges harder.

One issue of grain is that it can actually improve impression of sharpness:

1) Gives the eye something to focus on
2) Can mask minor unsharpness

A final factor that may come into effect is that MFDBs don't have a OLP (optical low pass filter). The lack of OLP will result in some false detail, which can be perceived as extra sharpness. It's a guess that "digital photographers" like the effect of sharpening and the effects caused by the lack of aliasing filter while analogue photographers appreciate a different sort of imaging, with possibly higher resolution but less edge contrast.

Best regards
Erik
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2009, 01:28:22 pm »

Hi Anders,

I have a couple of issues with your comments.

1) Please don't forget that original posting was about 8x10" film. That format has an image circle of 325 mm (nominally, calculated from 8x10 inch size) so the XL lens you have would not cover it.

2) I don't know which 72XL lens you have, I have downloaded the MTF curves for for the Schneider 72XL lens:

http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/..._xl_56_72_2.pdf

Please note that the MTF figures are here for 5, 10, and 20 lp/mm.

The corresponding curves for the Schneider APO Digitar 24/5.6 are here:

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...R47815_2CIE.pdf

Note that the curves are for 15, 30 and 60 lp/mm. So the most valid comparison would be to compare the top (15 lp/mm) line on the "Digitar" with the bottom line (20 lp/mm) on the 72 XL.

Admittedly, the APO Digitars are top of the class, but Hasselblad is certainly having pretty good lenses in the HC-series and Phase One is migrating to very high quality lenses, too.

3) I presume that you are comparing center sharpness between your Mamiya and your 72XL and that is a perfectly valid comparison, but I'd presume that our potential 8x10 buyer would be interested in having superior sharpness across the whole image.

4) Regarding the sharpening issue:
- All digital image processing involves sharpning
- The optimal amount of sharpening varies with equipment

I was not discussing DSLRs at all in my post. The point of the discussion was entirely MFDB and up.

Many large format photographers progressed from LF-film to digital. Charlie Cramer has done that and wrote about the experience here on LL. Joseph Holmes had also a lengthy discussion converting from LF-film to digital.

So, sorry, I actually think that my writing is correct. Why does it differ from what you see? I don't know!

As a comment on the side, I have noticed that you and I have a tendency to have opposite viewpoints, sorry for that, I have great respect for both your writing and your photographs. Michael Reichmann had an interview and a shooting section with Jack Dykinga in llVJ 18, very interesting.

Best regards
Erik




Quote from: Anders_HK
Erik,

Just scanning through your post... and ending grabbing two issues that you touch on and that are simply not correct;

1. MF lenses versus large format. My Schneider 72XL appear to beat all my Mamiya 645 lenses except perhaps my Mamiya 28mm! I am not sure which of those two is sharpest. Withe the 72XL my Aptus was mounted on my Burmease teak Shen-Hao 4x5. Even my Rodenstock 150 Sironar-N appear to equally outdo most my Mamiya lenses... It goes to show that what LF companies claims of that we need digital LF lenses is not necessarily true! Lets att that the 72XL has a 229mm image circle...

2. Sharpening. A digital back simply do NOT need the sharpening that a file from a dslr. Yes, the lack of AA but also a different type and a very quality sensor on a MFDB, in particular the Dalsa sensors.

Apart from these, I think I already made my points in post above, focus on MP and analyzing it leads to nowhere. There is difference between rendering from dslr, mfdb and film. Take a look at landscape photo books as I suggested... any with digital images to beat those of Jack Dykinga?

Rgds
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 08:29:22 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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MarkIV

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« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2010, 01:01:20 pm »

I went to Rodney Lough Jr's new gallery in the "City Center" on the strip in Vegas the other day and got to talk with him for about 45 minutes, on this issue.  He had two images he stitched together with the P65 (5 images with little overlap to a 6 foot panorama).  We scrutinized the fine detail there.  Then we scrutinized his 10 foot panorama that was cropped from a 8x10 transparency and drum scanned.  We both concluded from the areas we looked at that the 8x10 (cropped) was noticeable better in fine detail.  The Hasselblad with the P65 exceeded 200 Mega Pixels (before interpolation) and might have been more in the 300 range.  Both the digital and the film were developed with top notch skills. Both were printed on Fuji Flex at 300 ppi using the Light-jet.

As a "digital guy" this stunned me.  I am now adding LF to the mix!
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fredjeang

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« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2010, 01:22:42 pm »

Why we still see nowdays most of the world top class photographers who work big prints using exclusively LF film? Why? Because there are all old fashion and stupid?
These guys have all the money and the best technicians and laboratories.

So again, why don't they switch to digital now?

I would like to know the answer.

Fred.
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pcunite

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« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2010, 01:40:50 pm »

Quote from: fredjeang
Why we still see nowdays most of the world top class photographers who work big prints using exclusively LF film? Why? Because there are all old fashion and stupid?
These guys have all the money and the best technicians and laboratories.

So again, why don't they switch to digital now?

I would like to know the answer.

Why do people buy hand made John Lobbs shoes? Branding, marketing, old world craftsmanship. Forget what the final output maybe... if you want to be famous then you have to create brand awareness around what your doing as well has your output. Why do you think all these people advertise the camera's they use? Because they are hard to use and hard to acquire as in the case of Luminous Landscape it is a p65+.

Keep in mind that art and fashion go hand in hand. There are connections, friends in the business, family money, protocol, sweaters and tea, you get the idea. As always there are exceptions but they are rare.

The art gallery buying public love's nutcases. If you spend crazing amounts of money, or go on year long escapades, or use crazy methods they love you all the more. Everyone else is shooting typically for volume commercial work. Not these one-off Steve Fossett type scenarios.

So if you want to join the ranks of Soth and others create a back story about yourself... how you were driven to tell the story about this or that and you waited 30 days in the cold for the light to be just right or you slept in a cardboard box for a year and you use an 8x10 or a p65+ all by yourself in your lonely tortured world just to express to the rest of us why your so tortured... then you can be a true artist to the gallery clubs.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 01:52:58 pm by pcunite »
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DanielStone

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« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2010, 01:52:06 pm »

fred,

shooting LF is MUCH more labor-intensive than going "point, click, "hmmm, a little brighter would be nice" ".

but the results are worth it.

those "old farts" who still shoot LF film are going to be around for a while, especially since there is a new generation(myself included, I'm 21) who are starting to pick up used 4x5 and 8x10 equipment, and seeing that they can AFFORD to shoot LF film(even though its expensive to most people my age), but 99% can't afford a P65+, or the finest lenses to match it to in order to take advantage of all that sensor has to offer.

most large shops(B&H, Samy's(to an extent), Adorama, FotoImpex(DE), and Calumet) still stock LF film regularly, even though the demand is WAAAY down from what it was even 2-3 years ago.

different strokes for different folks, but spending $2k to get up and running with some FINE 8x10 or 4x5 equipment is small change compared to $40-60k to get a digital setup(even at used prices) that can get close to the detail that a 4x5 or 8x10 transparency(or negative if done well) can produce.

yes, the LF is heavier to carry, but that's what you do instead of getting a gym membership .

besides, the turnover rate of digital(if you want to stay with the latest and greatest technology), you'll have to either sell a LOT of prints, or teach workshops where you're full to the brim with people wanting to see how you shoot. or if you're just rich, that nixes both previous suggestions .

8x10 and 4x5 doesn't just have the 'sharpness' down, but it has a certain look that even MF digital can't really tackle head on(movements mainly)

-Dan
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fredjeang

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« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2010, 02:12:02 pm »

     
Lu-La is a great place! I like the expressions used to argue. I do not agree with Pcunite but have to say that his style and images made me laugh. I respect your arguments and do not feel concerned as I'm not tortured at all since the end of my teenage and do not plan to talk to the world about how bad I feel.
  I learn more english expressions here than in my all english studdies and it's a lot of fun and pleasure for me to read you.

Daniel, I agree 100% what you said. I'm in about the same situation as yours ( although a little older ).
Yes, nice and healphy to see a new generation of LF users.


Fred.
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micek

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« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2010, 02:49:21 pm »

Quote from: DanielStone
yes, the LF is heavier to carry, but that's what you do instead of getting a gym membership
My 8x10 camera only weighs 3,4 kg -not that much more than a full frame DSLR outfit. Modern 4x5 cameras are actually lighter than Canon or Nikon's top models...
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pixjohn

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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2010, 03:18:40 pm »

This is what I said earlier in this thread regarding  Rodney Lough Jr's gallery.  I did not know at the time he shot with the P65 but next to the film prints, it did not stand up.

Just because CD's are newer then vinyl, the old vinyl still sounds better

Quote from: MarkIV
I went to Rodney Lough Jr's new gallery in the "City Center" on the strip in Vegas the other day and got to talk with him for about 45 minutes, on this issue.  He had two images he stitched together with the P65 (5 images with little overlap to a 6 foot panorama).  We scrutinized the fine detail there.  Then we scrutinized his 10 foot panorama that was cropped from a 8x10 transparency and drum scanned.  We both concluded from the areas we looked at that the 8x10 (cropped) was noticeable better in fine detail.  The Hasselblad with the P65 exceeded 200 Mega Pixels (before interpolation) and might have been more in the 300 range.  Both the digital and the film were developed with top notch skills. Both were printed on Fuji Flex at 300 ppi using the Light-jet.

As a "digital guy" this stunned me.  I am now adding LF to the mix!
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DanielStone

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2010, 03:19:21 pm »

Quote from: micek
My 8x10 camera only weighs 3,4 kg -not that much more than a full frame DSLR outfit. Modern 4x5 cameras are actually lighter than Canon or Nikon's top models...


ya, unfortunately, my Sinar 4x5 is a 'bit' too heavy to trek TOO far into the hills with . but the movements it gives me when I do still life keep it in my arsenal, for now.

I've been re-thinking selling most of my gear(including the sinar) and going with an 8x10 deardorff, or light(er)-weight 8x10 field camera. I could combine this with a 4x5 and 5x7 reducing back, and use ALL the lenses for ALL the formats. Unfortunately, I've accumulated so much CRAP the last 2 years, I'd have to sell off quite a bit in order to fund this little project.

but the more I get used to using the LF gear, the easier, and faster(setting up/tearing down) it becomes, allowing me to move on and get the next shot(funny saying that, I take about 10 mins to photograph 1 8X10, about 7 mins with the 4x5, I can get through a whole 36exp roll of 35mm in about 6 sec on motor drive).

The more work I look at like R.L. Jr's, Peter Lik, and some of the English guys who use LF a lot(especially for color), the more I get motivated to get out and make photographs with the "big guys(cameras)".

I love backpacking, but to me, being out in nature is the thing that keeps me shooting film. I can hike up into the hills behind where I live(LA), and be up there for a full weekend, just bringing some Readyloads/Quickloads(those that I have left that is), and 5-8 film holders(with changing bag), I can come home Sunday night with EASILY 30-40 GREAT shots, that I know 100% I got the way I wanted them.

having a lab that can develop E-6 for ~$1.50/4x5 or $5/8x10 sheet keeps me going with the color, b/w I do myself in Jobo drums.

getting the time to shoot is hard though: I wasn't able to get into ANY of the classes I needed to get ahead towards transferring to a Univ. for this spring term, so I'm currently looking for work that would allow me enough time to be out photographing and traveling(my 2nd passion). But alas, I'm not rich(yet!), and film costs money, so I have to draw the line somewhere .

besides, shooting LF is good for your health , keeps you sane when you see that you only spent $300 on film and developing in a month, rather than a years salary in 1hr on your new digital setup, which will be phased out in another 2 years .

-Dan
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:21:39 pm by DanielStone »
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DanielStone

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2010, 03:23:34 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn
Just because CD's are newer then vinyl, the old vinyl still sounds better

hear ya there . Listening to some of my dad's beatles records right now as I type this!

its great to see some new(er) bands recording and outputting vinyl to the markets, just buy 2 of them(1 to play, one to store as a backup)

-Dan
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fredjeang

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2010, 07:53:30 am »

Independently of quality between MFD and LF film, I think Daniel resumed perfectly a simple fact:
For a young photographer, there is simply no other alternative than LF film.
There is a lack.
I remember when student, we used to have both Lubitel or Pentax 67 and we were able to work in large films if it was our purpose.
These were not Hasselblad, but at least you had acess to learn the techniques etc...
The wonderful digital MF system that are available now are simply too expensive and reserved to the settle Pro, companies, or very
wealphy people.
There is no, lets say, 5000 euros ?? system.
So LF film is still going to be used for awhile. This level of digital tools is still reserved to a kind of elite and it will not change quickly.

Fred.
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KevinA

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2010, 08:21:14 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Independently of quality between MFD and LF film, I think Daniel resumed perfectly a simple fact:
For a young photographer, there is simply no other alternative than LF film.
There is a lack.
I remember when student, we used to have both Lubitel or Pentax 67 and we were able to work in large films if it was our purpose.
These were not Hasselblad, but at least you had acess to learn the techniques etc...
The wonderful digital MF system that are available now are simply too expensive and reserved to the settle Pro, companies, or very
wealphy people.
There is no, lets say, 5000 euros ?? system.
So LF film is still going to be used for awhile. This level of digital tools is still reserved to a kind of elite and it will not change quickly.

Fred.

I've not read all the posts so forgive me if it's been debated and I missed it. The talk with film is about getting a quality scan made. So how about the B&W shooter that makes silver prints with an enlarger. The limit then would be lens and paper/developer combination. Or a C type for the colour worker. Does the digital side of working with film limit the quality to digital technology?

Kevin.
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Kevin.

aaron

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8x10/MFDB Comparison
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2010, 08:30:19 am »

Do you guys shooting sheet film, particularily 8x10 worry about its availability in the future?

With Fuji announcing an end to quickload etc.. the trend continues to see a reduction in large formats future.

I think a lot of photographers consider trying or returning to large format must be put off by this trend. For anyone who is new to LF it seems a risk to invest the time and money (but more time!) to master a medium which seems to be in decline.

I think if photographers were more confident of LF having a furure then more would give it a go. This is surely the reason why some big Fine Art names have moved to MFD.

Setting the money bit aside, if you were considering taking up either LF or MFD the learning curve with MFD is certainly easier, the instant nature of it allows you to learn fast. With LF on the other hand it can take a long time to get your techniques down.

But still, if 8x10 sheet film had a guaranteed future, i think it trend would be one of growth.

Any opinions?
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