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BobDavid

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Epsons fried by lightning
« on: July 30, 2009, 09:15:09 pm »

Living in Polk County, Florida, the lightning capital of N. America, is nice in the winter but risky in the summer. Summertime is the rainy season. Afternoon electrical storms are not uncommon. Yesterday, our yard got hit by lightning. My wife actually felt an electromagnetic surge/pulse. She said it was like being up close to a Van der Graaf generator. Many of our electrical and eletronic household items bit the dust.

My production computer and Epsons (7800 & 9800) are no longer functional. The Epsons do start up when they are turned on, however the USB ports are not working. Epson has dispatched a company called Decision One to make a service call. They said that the mother boards would probably have to be replaced. I hear that those mother boards cost around $350, plus the service call and labor charges. I am wondering that once these printers are "fixed" their life expectancies will be shortened. I'm in the process of filing a claim with the insurance company. I was advised by a computer tech to write the machines off as a loss regardless of whether they are fixable or not because he asserts that other components were probably compromised even though they are performing to spec at this time.

Any comments or insights on this matter will be appreciated.
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titusbear

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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 09:33:49 pm »

virtually all scientific /computer center /corporate grade surge protectors not only do a great job in protecting against surges - but the major brands offer - for free -  thousands of dollars of insurance ($3-4K to >$25 or $50K depending on protector)for devices collected to them if the protector doesn't do it's job.  A protector for each machine is a cheap investment.  

As for claiming the machines as a loss - see what your insurance will take... but they may ask why such professional equipment was not protected by surge protectors (especially if you are a professional /business).  

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titusbear

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 09:42:28 pm »

I quickly looked at the protectors on my equipment.  All are made by Tripp-Lite, and all provide insurance in case they don't protect as advertised.  Here is an example from their web-site:

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model...?txtModelID=112

That's $130.00 LIST, with $50K insurance.   Their site contains useful information re: not only surge protection (from electrical /telephone lines /et.al.) but also UPS systems.

There are numerous other fine brands, but I got to know Tripp-Lite because they also provide  great systems for protecting things like scientific /medical equipment and large data centers.





Quote from: titusbear
virtually all scientific /computer center /corporate grade surge protectors not only do a great job in protecting against surges - but the major brands offer - for free -  thousands of dollars of insurance ($3-4K to >$25 or $50K depending on protector)for devices collected to them if the protector doesn't do it's job.  A protector for each machine is a cheap investment.  

As for claiming the machines as a loss - see what your insurance will take... but they may ask why such professional equipment was not protected by surge protectors (especially if you are a professional /business).
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BobDavid

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 09:52:07 pm »

Oh, my equipment did have surge protection. In fact, the computers had high-quality battery/surge protection devices and the Epsons had dedicated commercial-grade surge protectors. Also, I have a lightning supressor installed between the service line and the main electrical box. What actually fried everything was the electromagnetic radiation. This is similar to an energy field that is generted by a Tesla coil or a Van Der Graf generator. This is something that is not handled by surge protectors. This is a phenomenon that people are aware of in high-strike lightning zones. My surge protectors and backup batteries are fine. They were unharmed by this. And yes, I have talked to the manufacturers of my surge protection devices. This is not covered because it was not a line voltage surge. Don't be lulled into a sense of false security with surge protection devices. They are good and necessary, but they are not silver bullets.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 10:05:14 pm by BobDavid »
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bill t.

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 11:41:44 pm »

My house is on a New Mexico hill with a "Kick Me" sign pointing heavenward.  Three lightning strikes in 20 years.  The worst hit the Comcast cable wrapped around the back of the house, the jolt laughed at the "grounded" cable and the Tripp Lite Isobars as it came inside and destroyed lots of electronics.  Protection devices that close to a lighting strike are nothing more than minor spark gaps.  The neighbor's CRT's were rainbowed by the EMP , needed a now-antique degaussing ring to straighten them out...but his protected electronic stuff all survived.

The moral to this is that when the time the between the flash and sound is less than a few seconds, I step AWAY from the computer.  Also was interesting to find out how difficult and expensive it is to provide adequate "lighting rod" protection for a house.  Lightning doesn't necessarily strike exactly where you want it to and badly designed "rod" systems can make you more of a target.
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bradleygibson

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 01:04:44 am »

Spikes can enter thorugh your telephone or broadband connection and leak through to your network via your cablemodem/DSL modem.  To really do a good job all these sources need to be protected as well as your power lines.

A device like this can cover your coax (cable), RJ-11 (phone) RJ-45 (network) as well as your power lines very well.  Just be sure that all networked devices are similarly protected from their connection points wherever they are on the network or you've basically go a leaky defense.

Sorry to hear about your gear--I hope you are able to get it replaced without too much difficulty...

(Years back, I worked for a time on electrical problems of a Fortune 1000 company's national PC network.  After several months researching the issues they were having I was able to save them several million dollars by properly protecting their branch networks and all but eliminating power related hardware failures.)

Best regards,
-Brad
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ternst

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 07:20:20 am »

BobDavid:

Wow, I am finally glad to hear this explained! (I live in Arkansas and we are #3 on the list of worst lightning states - turns out the ranking has a lot to do with the number of gold courses.) We get hit many times a year by lightning that often hits within feet of our cabin and fries electronics - even some that are BATTERY POWERED! People look at us like we are crazy. The natural reply from everyone is "get a surge protector" and you will be fine, or their insurance will cover you. As you note this is simply not true in these types of cases. And even if the jolt does come through the lines you may find that the insurance coverage defaults to your homeowner's policy first, and the deductible that goes with it. In more than ten years of dealing with this I've never been able to get a cent out of the surge protector companies, even though I've had 40-50 items that were plugged into surge protectors and/or UPC that were taken out of commission by lightning strikes.

I have found that many times the only part of the item that is destroyed is the power supply - the rest of the unit is fine. This is especially true of items that have the "brick" type of power connection - something in that brick is easily destroyed, but it is also easily replaced and is something to try first (although not the case with your printers).

One really bad episode did not have anything to do with lightning. We had a series of power surges that lasted for an entire day - the lights would go really dim and then they would spike and be many times brighter than normal, then get very dim again. I finally disconnected from the grid and called the power company. Turns out we had more than a dozen electric items destroyed, including three different stereo systems. We had been renting a special "whole house" surge protector from the power company for $6 a month for several years (they installed it inside our home in the breaker box), which obviously did not do a thing for this actual surge issue. The power company found and repaired a loose ground wire at the meter on the power pole, then removed the surge protector inside our house and sent it into the company who made it - they claimed the surge did not come through their unit and therefore they were not liable for the destruction - even though the power company found and fixed the issue on the other side of the unit! Homeowner's insurance wanted us to get an estimate of repairs before they would look at the claim (after the $1,000 deduct) - something that would have cost hundreds of bucks up front (ever tried to get an estimate to repair a stereo system that you bought mail order?).

By the way, as Brad noted we've actually had much more damage done by surges coming in through the phone lines than through power lines, so if you do have surge protectors be sure to plug your phone and network lines in through them too - they still won't work very well, but at least you might sleep better!

Here is an example of a phone line issue. I got 1000' of the special underground phone line wire from the phone company and buried it between our cabin and a warehouse building out in the woods where I store my picture books. One bolt of lightning hit a tall tree near that building, ran down the tree and into the roots, then underground to the buried phone cable - blasting out a ten foot long by two feet wide by two feet deep trench in the process. When it hit the phone cable it turned and followed the cable into the warehouse and blew the phone outlet into the room, nearly setting the building on fire (it melted everything around the outlet).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 07:22:06 am by ternst »
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Geoff Wittig

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 08:52:31 am »

Quote from: BobDavid
Living in Polk County, Florida, the lightning capital of N. America, is nice in the winter but risky in the summer. Summertime is the rainy season. Afternoon electrical storms are not uncommon. Yesterday, our yard got hit by lightning. My wife actually felt an electromagnetic surge/pulse. She said it was like being up close to a Van der Graaf generator. Many of our electrical and eletronic household items bit the dust.

My production computer and Epsons (7800 & 9800) are no longer functional. The Epsons do start up when they are turned on, however the USB ports are not working. Epson has dispatched a company called Decision One to make a service call. They said that the mother boards would probably have to be replaced. I hear that those mother boards cost around $350, plus the service call and labor charges. I am wondering that once these printers are "fixed" their life expectancies will be shortened. I'm in the process of filing a claim with the insurance company. I was advised by a computer tech to write the machines off as a loss regardless of whether they are fixable or not because he asserts that other components were probably compromised even though they are performing to spec at this time.

Any comments or insights on this matter will be appreciated.

My sincere sympathies.
I live in rural western NY state, and believe it or not we also have numerous lightning storms every summer. We live on a hilltop and there are frequent lightning strikes to nearby power poles, which over the years have destroyed at least 3 computer modems and one large screen television in our home. No matter what anyone tells you, a surge suppressor is not sufficient to protect a computer or large format printer from a nearby strike. The absurd voltage spike can get through it before it trips. I routinely unplug my HP Z3100 (and my earlier Epson 7600) when there's any threat of lightning. A computer that's 'off' can survive even if it's plugged in because nothing is 'live'; but these clever new wide format printers are always drawing some current to maintain their print-heads, which is an open door for the voltage spike from lightning.

The electronic widgets in these things are very sensitive to intense voltage spikes, so the technician is likely correct about the printers being write-off's.
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felix5616

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 03:28:43 pm »

Look into a product called Zero Surge
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ternst

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 12:19:34 am »

Hum, I just looked into ZeroSurge - there is zero protection from lightning strikes coming in through the phone lines (no phone line protection at all with their units), and it sounds like a lightning strike close by would also blast electronics. Sounds like their systems are mainly for surges that originate inside the home (not sure how that happens but I guess it does - they say 80% of all surges originate inside the home). I would LOVE to find some real protection from these types of lightning strikes, but so far, nothing really works and I'm not sure anything really would - just too much juice I guess...(I know they claim none of their units have EVER failed, but then neither have the ones I use failed either - yet my electronics still get blown up while plugged into them - perhaps I'm not understanding the meaning of the term "fail?")
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Clearair

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 05:16:34 am »

Quote from: BobDavid
Living in Polk County, Florida, the lightning capital of N. America, is nice in the winter but risky in the summer. Summertime is the rainy season. Afternoon electrical storms are not uncommon. Yesterday, our yard got hit by lightning. My wife actually felt an electromagnetic surge/pulse. She said it was like being up close to a Van der Graaf generator. Many of our electrical and eletronic household items bit the dust.

My production computer and Epsons (7800 & 9800) are no longer functional. The Epsons do start up when they are turned on, however the USB ports are not working. Epson has dispatched a company called Decision One to make a service call. They said that the mother boards would probably have to be replaced. I hear that those mother boards cost around $350, plus the service call and labor charges. I am wondering that once these printers are "fixed" their life expectancies will be shortened. I'm in the process of filing a claim with the insurance company. I was advised by a computer tech to write the machines off as a loss regardless of whether they are fixable or not because he asserts that other components were probably compromised even though they are performing to spec at this time.

Any comments or insights on this matter will be appreciated.


I don't know about EMP from lightening but I do know how to avoid damage to my equipment having been though some amazing storms both wet and dry in Africa.

UNPLUG it all, including sat dish/phone connections.

I know this is very inconvenient so it helps to have a set up making this easy to do. Look at your surge/UPS where everything is connected to and unplug that if it's getting bad. If leaving for the day etc and it's that time of year think about unplugging.

Get off the phone!

Yes I know it's bizarre having the so called protection and unplugging stuff but I see the surge protection devices as a general solution and not if things are wild. Now back in the UK I have yet to feel the need and leave everything plugged into UPS etc.
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ternst

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 07:52:53 am »

Yes Clearair, that is pretty much correct - I have computers on in three different buildings and when we have storms roll through during the night I am up and dashing from building to building in my bathrobe to shut down and unplug everything, including the phone lines - so far that is the only thing that works, although we still get damage inside when lightning comes in through the phone line - the outlet can get blown out of the wall! We've also had battery-powered things get zapped that were not plugged into anything - it takes a pretty hair-raising event for that to happen though! (I use Macs and normally never turn them off - saves a lot of time in our daily routine.)
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BobDavid

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 09:42:52 am »

Quote from: Clearair
I don't know about EMP from lightening but I do know how to avoid damage to my equipment having been though some amazing storms both wet and dry in Africa.

UNPLUG it all, including sat dish/phone connections.

I know this is very inconvenient so it helps to have a set up making this easy to do. Look at your surge/UPS where everything is connected to and unplug that if it's getting bad. If leaving for the day etc and it's that time of year think about unplugging.

Get off the phone!

Yes I know it's bizarre having the so called protection and unplugging stuff but I see the surge protection devices as a general solution and not if things are wild. Now back in the UK I have yet to feel the need and leave everything plugged into UPS etc.

You are now preaching to the choir. You are absolutely correct about unplugging everything and staying off the land line phone during storms. I never took these precautions seriously until my house & business got struck last week.
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GRHazelton

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 04:06:23 pm »

Several years ago lightening struck next door.  In addition to frying a stereo receiver and a television, the electromagnetic pulse referred to above induced unequal charges in some foil-backed wallpaper that I had just installed in the bathroom.  Note that there was NO connection to a power line.  These unequal charges arced across the joints between panels, burning off the ink at the joints here and there, and also producing burned spots randomly on the panels.  Every piece of wallpaper was damaged.  I took photos to document the damage, but the our insurance paid for new paper and installation without objection.  Just imagine, answering nature's call and suddenly a light show....
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dseelig

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Epsons fried by lightning
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 04:32:41 pm »

One other thing after so many strikes a surge proteckter will lose there ability to safegaurd your gear I update my surge units every year.
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