Unable To Create 2 Match Prints

[jrdigiart]

I'm not sure where this post belongs, but I thought i'd try here first.

I created a sepia mural 6' x 20', consisting of 7 panels.  Foolishly, I printed them with an "invalid profile" on my Z3100.  First I printed 2 panels and about a week later I printed the remaining 5. These 5 panels didn't match the original 2... and now, during installation, a panel ripped and I need to re-print it.  I have since fixed the problem with the Z3100, and created the proper profile.  I re-printed the panel thinking I'd just need to do some color correcting due to the new profile.  Using Photoshop CS4, I tried color correcting 4 different segments from the original file. Through trial and error, I printed test strips, but after about 20 of them, I realized I needed another approach.  Using the 4 segments from the test strips, I overlaid them on top of the original panel I need to match.  I photographed them and in PS, created a split screen of the two, thinking it would be easy to match colors, but the same thing happens... correcting one area creates a shift somewhere else.  This seems to defy logic... I don't understand how segments from the same file can't be color corrected unilaterally.  What am I missing?  All advice is greatly appreciated!!

Thanx,

Joe Roselli
JR Digital Artworks

[bill t.]

I got a bogus profile from a well known manufacturer.  Without any warning message at all my Epson driver made the prints.  Very DARK prints.  After much investigation I realized that printing with that profile was exactly the same as printing with all color management off, like printing targets.  Maybe your Canon did the same thing, and maybe that's the solution to reproducing your initial prints.  FWIW I suspect the unmanaged prints have dark & saturated colors that are out of gamut for a profiled system, possibly like what you're experiencing.

[Phil Indeblanc]

I'm not sure where this post belongs, but I thought i'd try here first.

I created a sepia mural 6' x 20', consisting of 7 panels.  Foolishly, I printed them with an "invalid profile" on my Z3100.  First I printed 2 panels and about a week later I printed the remaining 5. These 5 panels didn't match the original 2... and now, during installation, a panel ripped and I need to re-print it.  I have since fixed the problem with the Z3100, and created the proper profile.  I re-printed the panel thinking I'd just need to do some color correcting due to the new profile.  Using Photoshop CS4, I tried color correcting 4 different segments from the original file. Through trial and error, I printed test strips, but after about 20 of them, I realized I needed another approach.  Using the 4 segments from the test strips, I overlaid them on top of the original panel I need to match.  I photographed them and in PS, created a split screen of the two, thinking it would be easy to match colors, but the same thing happens... correcting one area creates a shift somewhere else.  This seems to defy logic... I don't understand how segments from the same file can't be color corrected unilaterally.  What am I missing?  All advice is greatly appreciated!!

Thanx,

Joe Roselli
JR Digital Artworks

You will save yourself headache and anger unless you reprint them all using the same profile at the same time.  Allow for proper dry time before you start comparing prints.

Bill...he is using a HP.

If you are using different profiles and expect them to look the same even after you try to match them within CS4, you are asking too much. Its like taking a Fiero, and saying "with this body kit, I can make this Pontiac Fiero be a Ferrari". Not gonna cut it.  

[jrdigiart]

You will save yourself headache and anger unless you reprint them all using the same profile at the same time.  Allow for proper dry time before you start comparing prints.

Bill...he is using a HP.

If you are using different profiles and expect them to look the same even after you try to match them within CS4, you are asking too much. Its like taking a Fiero, and saying "with this body kit, I can make this Pontiac Fiero be a Ferrari". Not gonna cut it.  

Thanks for your input guys... it seems that's my only option... printing it all over.  But I just don't understand this... the "invalid" profile is only a few months old and HP considering it "invalid" really shouldn't make much difference... so I thought.  All the panels were printed with the same profile... the profile didn't change.  Each panel was created from the same master file of the entire mural... I just made a separate file for each panel.  So the files didn't change and the profile didn't change, what's the problem?.  Considering these are really just a bunch of numbers, I'm exasperated trying to figure out where 3 different shades of sepia came from... regardless that they were printed at 3 different times. What other factors are there to make this happen???   Thanx again!
Joe Roselli
JR Digital Artworks

[Phil Indeblanc]

Thanks for your input guys... it seems that's my only option... printing it all over.  But I just don't understand this... the "invalid" profile is only a few months old and HP considering it "invalid" really shouldn't make much difference... so I thought.  All the panels were printed with the same profile... the profile didn't change.  Each panel was created from the same master file of the entire mural... I just made a separate file for each panel.  So the files didn't change and the profile didn't change, what's the problem?.  Considering these are really just a bunch of numbers, I'm exasperated trying to figure out where 3 different shades of sepia came from... regardless that they were printed at 3 different times. What other factors are there to make this happen???   Thanx again!
Joe Roselli
JR Digital Artworks

trying to understand the steps you took...
Assuming you took a section/crop from the master file and pasted into a new file; did the embedded profile in file itself change at all?
I am sure you already looked over the work a number of times over some timeframe, comparing the prints a good 24 hours after printing is likely not a issue.

On your Z3100...Is it possible that once the given time for an expired profile has reached, it defaults or changes to a different/neutral setting? (Some funky engineering of profile expirations).

On my RIP it allows me to set the interval of when to remake a profile...Does the HP software also do this, or does it decide on its own? If the latter, maybe they do get zapped?!

Thats what I can come up with with what you stated, and likely when you make a new file to paste into from the original, you might have used a different default profile.

[Colorwave]

Joe-
Was it the profile that was invalid, or the media calibration?  If it was the profile that was invalid, why can't you go back and use the same bad one, assuming it was acceptable enough in the first place?  If it is the calibration, the the new one overwrites the old, so there is no going back.  I could certainly see how specific colors could vary from one to the next that would make global color corrections extremely difficult.  Unfortunately, I think you know know the only likely solution, which is less grief and anguish, but harder on the wallet . . .

[jrdigiart]

trying to understand the steps you took...
Assuming you took a section/crop from the master file and pasted into a new file; did the embedded profile in file itself change at all?
I am sure you already looked over the work a number of times over some timeframe, comparing the prints a good 24 hours after printing is likely not a issue.

On your Z3100...Is it possible that once the given time for an expired profile has reached, it defaults or changes to a different/neutral setting? (Some funky engineering of profile expirations).

On my RIP it allows me to set the interval of when to remake a profile...Does the HP software also do this, or does it decide on its own? If the latter, maybe they do get zapped?!

Thats what I can come up with with what you stated, and likely when you make a new file to paste into from the original, you might have used a different default profile.

Hi Phil

All the files are ProPhoto RGB... I crop the section I want and "Save As". Once it's saved I undo the crop and move on to the next one.  As far as I know. when a profile becomes invalid, it isn't altered... just HP's way of saying "it's a good idea to update the profile"... but I can't say for sure.  I think I read somewhere on here that people have used invalid profiles without any problems.  I couldn't create a profile because the Z3100 couldn't find its internal paper list and it wouldn't let me create a new profile.  It was only after checking the forums that I found all I had to do was turn the printer off and on again... but I found this out after all the panels were printed.  Now that I think of it, I was using a profile that was similar to the paper I was using, since I couldn't create one... would using a "generic" profile create this problem, even though it was used consistently throughout the project??

jr

[jrdigiart]

Joe-
Was it the profile that was invalid, or the media calibration?  If it was the profile that was invalid, why can't you go back and use the same bad one, assuming it was acceptable enough in the first place?  If it is the calibration, the the new one overwrites the old, so there is no going back.  I could certainly see how specific colors could vary from one to the next that would make global color corrections extremely difficult.  Unfortunately, I think you know know the only likely solution, which is less grief and anguish, but harder on the wallet . . .

Hi Ron

As I replied to Phil, I was using a profile "similar" to the paper I'm using, because at the time, my printer wouldn't let me create a new profile.  Not to sound dumb, but what's the difference between creating a profile and calibrating the media?  The Z3100 has a built in spectrophotometer and I  think it does both at the same time...

jr

[Colorwave]

Two different steps in the color management process.  

Calibration is done first, and is what RIPs and other manufacturers often refer to as linearization.  It is only step densities of the 11 inks, with no mixing.  22 patches for each of the 11 inks. It needs to be done from time to time to bring the printer back to a known state with smooth color ramps for each ink.

Profiling should only need to be done once, after a calibration.  It characterizes each media type and will never go bad as long as there is no digital corruption in your system and the printer remains properly calibrated.  When you soft proof or choose a profile in Photoshop or your RIP to send a file to your printer you are either using a third party/manufacturer's profile or a profile you create yourself.  Both are possible with our printers.  I have APS, which creates profiles with blends of inks and lays down 990 patches (if memory serves correctly).  I think the standard model uses 400 something patches, also blended colors.  Both calibration and profiles are stored on the printer's hard drive, but you only use the printer's copy of a profile when you select printer managed color.  Otherwise, the profiles live on your computer's hard drive for normal application managed color.  

The printer occasionally says that a calibration is obsolete, but it can still sometimes be used with no visible complications.  That's what I'm guessing the issue is with you.  A profile, though, should only go bad from data corruption.  If you recalibrated when the printer said your calibration was obsolete, I think that data has already been overwritten, so it would be a tedious process of reverse engineering what the differences are in the old and new one.  It is unlikely that you could make sweeping global color adjustments and ever get a perfect match if there was a significant change in calibrations, as they could be multiple changes in each of the 11 ink curves.  I wouldn't expect huge changes from one calibration to the next, but if you are seeing significant differences I would suspect that there were a number of adjustments between the two calibrations, for some reason.

[jrdigiart]

Two different steps in the color management process.  

Calibration is done first, and is what RIPs and other manufacturers often refer to as linearization.  It is only step densities of the 11 inks, with no mixing.  22 patches for each of the 11 inks. It needs to be done from time to time to bring the printer back to a known state with smooth color ramps for each ink.

Profiling should only need to be done once, after a calibration.  It characterizes each media type and will never go bad as long as there is no digital corruption in your system and the printer remains properly calibrated.  When you soft proof or choose a profile in Photoshop or your RIP to send a file to your printer you are either using a third party/manufacturer's profile or a profile you create yourself.  Both are possible with our printers.  I have APS, which creates profiles with blends of inks and lays down 990 patches (if memory serves correctly).  I think the standard model uses 400 something patches, also blended colors.  Both calibration and profiles are stored on the printer's hard drive, but you only use the printer's copy of a profile when you select printer managed color.  Otherwise, the profiles live on your computer's hard drive for normal application managed color.  

The printer occasionally says that a calibration is obsolete, but it can still sometimes be used with no visible complications.  That's what I'm guessing the issue is with you.  A profile, though, should only go bad from data corruption.  If you recalibrated when the printer said your calibration was obsolete, I think that data has already been overwritten, so it would be a tedious process of reverse engineering what the differences are in the old and new one.  It is unlikely that you could make sweeping global color adjustments and ever get a perfect match if there was a significant change in calibrations, as they could be multiple changes in each of the 11 ink curves.  I wouldn't expect huge changes from one calibration to the next, but if you are seeing significant differences I would suspect that there were a number of adjustments between the two calibrations, for some reason.

I really appreciate all of your help and detailed info Ron.  I thought the printer automatically recalibrates when creating a new profile. When I make a new profile, it prints a thin strip of lines, which I'm assuming is the pure color of each ink, and below that 160 hexagonal patches.  It cuts that off and then prints a long strip of hexagonal patches... somewhere in the ballpark of 500.  Is the first one of these the recalibration, or just part of the profiling process?  Also, I currently use Photoshop's printer driver, will a RIP produce more accurate colors... adding a higher degree of accuracy when soft proofing?

jr

[Colorwave]

I really appreciate all of your help and detailed info Ron.  I thought the printer automatically recalibrates when creating a new profile. When I make a new profile, it prints a thin strip of lines, which I'm assuming is the pure color of each ink, and below that 160 hexagonal patches.  It cuts that off and then prints a long strip of hexagonal patches... somewhere in the ballpark of 500.  Is the first one of these the recalibration, or just part of the profiling process?  Also, I currently use Photoshop's printer driver, will a RIP produce more accurate colors... adding a higher degree of accuracy when soft proofing?

jr

JR-
It sounds a little different than what my printer does, which as I mentioned is the PS version with APS.  There are hairlines of pure color along one side of the calibration, but there are only 242 patches of unblended colors (light to dark only) for each calibration.  Profiles have larger color bars along one edge and many more patches of colors spread across the full spectrum.  It sounds like yours may very well be doing a calibration and then a profile automatically when you ask for a new profile, but you shouldn't need to profile more than once.  There is definitely a calibrate only command for the printer, which should be all you have to do periodically.  I can give each profile a unique name.  If you gave yours a different name, the old one could still be lurking in your computer somewhere.  It will be less helpful if it went with an old calibration, but might be a better starting point than a different profile.

As for RIPS, there are a few now for the Z printers, but I don't own one and the consensus seems to be that they are not that different in color accuracy.  Qimage is highly regarded for PC users, but mostly for page setup/workflow issues (I'm on a Mac).  I think top notch profiles are far more important than a RIP for color accuracy.  I get very good color accuracy out of APS profiles, but it is not the cream of the crop.  If you are really concerned about color accuracy and don't use a ton of different media types, you would spend less money for custom profiles.  If you use Breathing Color canvas or paper, they (and perhaps some other companies) will make custom profiles for your specific printer for free.  I know a few professional photographers that have Z3100 who aren't reproducing artwork, just printing their own work, and they are quite satisfied with canned manufacturer's profiles and their own custom ones made with base model Z printers.

[Phil Indeblanc]

I really appreciate all of your help and detailed info Ron.  I thought the printer automatically recalibrates when creating a new profile. When I make a new profile, it prints a thin strip of lines, which I'm assuming is the pure color of each ink, and below that 160 hexagonal patches.  It cuts that off and then prints a long strip of hexagonal patches... somewhere in the ballpark of 500.  Is the first one of these the recalibration, or just part of the profiling process?  Also, I currently use Photoshop's printer driver, will a RIP produce more accurate colors... adding a higher degree of accuracy when soft proofing?

jr

Just to rephrase Ron, in case it gives you better understanding....

You profile your inks to your paper/media. Your printer calibrates for the inks/heads to keep things consistant.  That calibration over time shifts, so you recalibrate. But this would/should not cause drastic changes to output.
Sounds like you had one profile in the file, and perhaps you picked another one or software managed color.

There are plenty good books on this subject, and I would look at Michael Reichamnn's coverage on the issue. I have purchased some other DVD's of of Michael, and they are real world tests, and in plain English.
I use a RIP with my printers as I like to make things a bit easier, get very accurate for proofing purposes. RIP automatically bypasses the printer driver, at least mine does.(EFI).  

If you tried to pick all the other profile options you would likely print more than reprinting the full job.

When you say you were using a profile to the paper you are using....As long as the profile and the paper are the same as you started, the calibration invalid should not cause such a problem.  If any of the variables changed, and they could easily have when choosing your options, then you can easily get very different prints.  When you print such LARGE panels....you want to get into it with your T's crossed, your I's dotted, and so on.....as you can see the mess it can make.

I hope by some luck, you pick a profile and get the last of your print done without a full reprint...at some point you have to weigh the time vs ink and paper and go at it again from ZERO.

good luck

[jrdigiart]

JR-
It sounds a little different than what my printer does, which as I mentioned is the PS version with APS.  There are hairlines of pure color along one side of the calibration, but there are only 242 patches of unblended colors (light to dark only) for each calibration.  Profiles have larger color bars along one edge and many more patches of colors spread across the full spectrum.  It sounds like yours may very well be doing a calibration and then a profile automatically when you ask for a new profile, but you shouldn't need to profile more than once.  There is definitely a calibrate only command for the printer, which should be all you have to do periodically.  I can give each profile a unique name.  If you gave yours a different name, the old one could still be lurking in your computer somewhere.  It will be less helpful if it went with an old calibration, but might be a better starting point than a different profile.

As for RIPS, there are a few now for the Z printers, but I don't own one and the consensus seems to be that they are not that different in color accuracy.  Qimage is highly regarded for PC users, but mostly for page setup/workflow issues (I'm on a Mac).  I think top notch profiles are far more important than a RIP for color accuracy.  I get very good color accuracy out of APS profiles, but it is not the cream of the crop.  If you are really concerned about color accuracy and don't use a ton of different media types, you would spend less money for custom profiles.  If you use Breathing Color canvas or paper, they (and perhaps some other companies) will make custom profiles for your specific printer for free.  I know a few professional photographers that have Z3100 who aren't reproducing artwork, just printing their own work, and they are quite satisfied with canned manufacturer's profiles and their own custom ones made with base model Z printers.

Ron,

You've been a great help... Mahalo!

[jrdigiart]

Just to rephrase Ron, in case it gives you better understanding....

You profile your inks to your paper/media. Your printer calibrates for the inks/heads to keep things consistant.  That calibration over time shifts, so you recalibrate. But this would/should not cause drastic changes to output.
Sounds like you had one profile in the file, and perhaps you picked another one or software managed color.

There are plenty good books on this subject, and I would look at Michael Reichamnn's coverage on the issue. I have purchased some other DVD's of of Michael, and they are real world tests, and in plain English.
I use a RIP with my printers as I like to make things a bit easier, get very accurate for proofing purposes. RIP automatically bypasses the printer driver, at least mine does.(EFI).  

If you tried to pick all the other profile options you would likely print more than reprinting the full job.

When you say you were using a profile to the paper you are using....As long as the profile and the paper are the same as you started, the calibration invalid should not cause such a problem.  If any of the variables changed, and they could easily have when choosing your options, then you can easily get very different prints.  When you print such LARGE panels....you want to get into it with your T's crossed, your I's dotted, and so on.....as you can see the mess it can make.

I hope by some luck, you pick a profile and get the last of your print done without a full reprint...at some point you have to weigh the time vs ink and paper and go at it again from ZERO.

good luck

Thanks Phil... I'm definitely going to check out the DVD's.  It seems pretty obvious by now that I had to have screwed up somewhere... colors just don't shift by themselves and the printer did print each set of panels accurately.  I thought I was being methodical... I guess I chock this up to a comedy of errors.  I'll just have to bite the bullet and print it all over again... some lessons can be expensive!  Thanks again to everyone for their helpful input!

jr

[Colorwave]

You are more than welcome, jr.  LL has been a big help to me, so I'm happy to be of use to someone else from time to time.  Some things about the HP printers are a little unintuitive and/or flakey, so don't feel bad for making a misstep.  Lessons can be costly, so the important thing is to try to limit yourself to one mistake per lesson.
Not sure what the best condiment is for a bullet sandwich, but you certainly have my empathy.
Aloha,
Ron