Rob,
> Without getting into a pointless yes/no argumnt, the fact that 60 million people live in the UK is irrelevant.
Not irrelevant or pointless since we are talking about the taxing entity. The population of taxpayers is the base model for the taxing entity. From that model we may get an idea of how many may work for the IRS and how the IRS pursues given groups.
Your original point is that the IRS closely watches small businesses in particular for their use of CAs. I'm saying that your point is statistically impossible. You appear to counter by stating that facts are irrelevant to your point. You appear to dismiss facts and instead evade.
> The taxpayers who are under the eye of the Taxman do not account for 60m returns - never had any of our babies make returns - we are speaking of the self-employed here, who are forever on the edges of credibility and/or the happy gaze of our Mr T.
I did not write that. Read my comment again.
> The pay-as-you-earn have nothing to worry about either; it´s the shadowy world of the self-employed that governments dislike: the possibility of evasion is an ever-present risk in the mind of the collectors.
Facts not in evidence. Again, the tax man has no incentive to give anyone a pass. It is clearly not in their interest to do so. And the courts and the gov would go after them as if they were silly buggers if they did. Here, instead of responding to that, you pretend to read the mind of the tax collectors.
> Frankly, though they spout that we might be the engine of the future employment surge (ha, bloody ha) the reality is that the more of us that exist the wider the scope facing them (taxmen) for finding hidden wealth.
Again, an opinion lacking facts. Lets talk about facts, shall we? According to a source, as of 2008 there are stated to be about 2.1 million business enterprises in the UK. The source goes on to state that the distribution is 25.4% sole proprietors, 14.1% partnerships, and 3.9% “government and non-profit” businesses.
http://www.bytestart.co.uk/content/news/st...ises-2008.shtml The remainder are not considered small businesses. Those numbers translate to roughly 903,000 small businesses. By your logic, those 903,000 small businesses are under the close eye of the tax man, based on if they use an accountant and which one they use. That is silly. How many people would it take to do 2nd tier audits of 903,000 returns? And you suppose that they keep a list of CAs as part of their audit process? Maybe they do. I frankly doubt it, but I ask for proof.
> However, as a group, we take up too much time for too little return and that´s partly why the logic of the argument would indicate that going through professional channels with one´s return has already acted as filter no.1, directing closer attention away to the non-represented.
So first you say they keep a close eye, and now you say small businesses take up too much time? (rolling eyes). 903,000 business taxpayers, almost half of the businesses in the UK are well worth IRS time. Your comment employs specious logic.
> The big companies are something else and are perfectly able to look after their own financial returns. Also, with so much money at stake within one source (the company), I think a lot of rules and regulations get slightly bent on both sides. I can see little other excuse for the financial meltdown that has hit the banks, from the top down.
Drifting far from the topic at hand here…. But you do hint at the primary role of a CA, and also hint at why their credibility is little better than the average tax payer.
> Yes, I can give a little personal illustration of this question mark that hangs over the small business. In 1966, the time of my genesis in this swamp of the self-employed, the UK had something called Purchase Tax. In essence, as a pro, you could register for an exemption certificate that allowed you to purchase film and paper less this tax. Part of the deal was that you kept strict stock records of materials used. One day, I had a surprise visit from a Tax Inspector who turned up at the studio and asked to see both my material store and the records. This I allowed at once, with no question in my mind at all. You know what, it turned out that I was two 120 films short and which I simply couldn´t account for in any manner at all. That mother spent an entire afternoon of his time and mine looking through my studio and books in an effort to chase the tax on two rolls of film. Not the price of two rolls of film, the tax value included therein.
Thanks for the story! I was audited too. In my case i owed them a little for 1 year but they ended up owing me money (to my delight) for 2 years. But like you, I did spend many many hours in preparation and also many more hours dealing with the auditor.
The job of the IRS in the US to push people to follow the letter of the law and to collect what the laws state they are entitled to. An auditor told me “Everyone hates the IRS.” And that is why they are backed by law. In the US the IRS isn’t even obligated to follow due process. But they are *required* to present facts. Maybe in the UK they amount to a mafia who doesn’t depend on law or facts. I dunno. I kind of doubt it, given those 60 million people would not long tolerate it. You know, being a democratic government and all does come with it’s boundaries....
> I rest my case on the mindset you have to deal with and why you need every single advantage you can find.
Gosh, Rob, thanks so much for patronizing me. I feel so special! Really, Rob, I'm making an attempt at an adult factual conversation. This is a site where we openly turn to each other to gain knowledge and share experiences. This conversation is no different in goal or intent. The means to achieve this goal is largely from the sharing of factual information.
You appear to live in the UK, I live in the US. The OP lives in Oz. It is a rich opportunity to learn something about each other’s culture and explore a topic that touches us all. You don’t wanna do that. You don’t even wanna have a factual discussion. That is okay with me, and I'm truly sorry if your temperament doesn’t permit that.
Unless you are willing, I’ll refrain from similar engagements in the future. Thanks very much for your time.